home defense: .410 over 12 gauge
- Thread starter thelonelychild
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Didn't we just go through this?
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Last go around JohnnyCash1979
Inactive
I prefer the 16 gauge.
Seeker,
You are apparently posting in the wrong thread or reading something into this one that hasn't been stated...
So far your statement hasn't been addressed previous to your post... No one said the .410 "Can NOT be effective for self defense"...
Contrary... I stated that it might and/or could serve defensive duty... But the OP has the mistaken opinion that the .410 loaded with equal size lead balls to that in a 12 gauge shell are "equal" or possibly even "supior" (OP's spelling not mine
) to the 12 gauge gun...
I would rather use a 12 gauge loaded with some 00 buckshot but I must "SETTLE" for a 20 gauge for more than reason resulting from a severely limiting injury to left arm and hand. I cannot reliably cycle the 12 gauge for second shot follow up as it often jumps out of my grasp upon firing and then the action is at half cycle and we all know that soft, short or stopping during cycling can lead to feed issues so I used the next biggest gun I could handle and that is the 20 gauge...
With the 20 gauge payload being about 1/8th ounce lighter on average given identical brand and pellet size, but equal in velocity, I am giving up a considerable amount but feel I am still not under gunned... Now if I couldn't handle the 20 gauge, I think I would resort to a super reliable, soft recoiling 9mm with a snot load of follow up shots sitting in the bowels of the grip...
The .410 can and will "kill" just as good as a .22 or a 10 gauge or even a .50 cal rifle round...
But in the sense of defense against humans, it is proven that death is not the goal...
Immediately stopping the threat is the goal...
SHR970,
Currently the thread lives on since it is still on topic and we haven't quite reached the "dead horse" state quite yet...
Now to profess the love of the .410 is fine... As is stating that you feel it would serve you in the role of defensive shotgun...
But I cannot sit here and forget all the schooling regarding physics etc. or lifelong acquired experience using the .410, 20 and 12 gauge EXTENSIVELY since I was a tiny boy...
Just cannot claim the efficacy of the lesser payload is equal to that of the larger payload...
Keep in mind my dad handed down his Mossberg .410 bolt gun to be MINE at 8 years of age... Before I got a bigger gun I had gained some pretty good skills with my "little .410" over the years. Many adults would brag on my abilities and some cash wagers were made over my head regarding my abilities to drop all sorts of game with it...
But given the first opportunity, I upgraded to 12 gauge for larger targets as I knew first hand the limitations of the .410 in both shot pattern density at distance and outright knock down capability...
Brent
You are apparently posting in the wrong thread or reading something into this one that hasn't been stated...
So far your statement hasn't been addressed previous to your post... No one said the .410 "Can NOT be effective for self defense"...
Contrary... I stated that it might and/or could serve defensive duty... But the OP has the mistaken opinion that the .410 loaded with equal size lead balls to that in a 12 gauge shell are "equal" or possibly even "supior" (OP's spelling not mine
) to the 12 gauge gun...I would rather use a 12 gauge loaded with some 00 buckshot but I must "SETTLE" for a 20 gauge for more than reason resulting from a severely limiting injury to left arm and hand. I cannot reliably cycle the 12 gauge for second shot follow up as it often jumps out of my grasp upon firing and then the action is at half cycle and we all know that soft, short or stopping during cycling can lead to feed issues so I used the next biggest gun I could handle and that is the 20 gauge...
With the 20 gauge payload being about 1/8th ounce lighter on average given identical brand and pellet size, but equal in velocity, I am giving up a considerable amount but feel I am still not under gunned... Now if I couldn't handle the 20 gauge, I think I would resort to a super reliable, soft recoiling 9mm with a snot load of follow up shots sitting in the bowels of the grip...
The .410 can and will "kill" just as good as a .22 or a 10 gauge or even a .50 cal rifle round...
But in the sense of defense against humans, it is proven that death is not the goal...
Immediately stopping the threat is the goal...
SHR970,
See my first post in this thread....
Currently the thread lives on since it is still on topic and we haven't quite reached the "dead horse" state quite yet...
Now to profess the love of the .410 is fine... As is stating that you feel it would serve you in the role of defensive shotgun...
But I cannot sit here and forget all the schooling regarding physics etc. or lifelong acquired experience using the .410, 20 and 12 gauge EXTENSIVELY since I was a tiny boy...
Just cannot claim the efficacy of the lesser payload is equal to that of the larger payload...
Keep in mind my dad handed down his Mossberg .410 bolt gun to be MINE at 8 years of age... Before I got a bigger gun I had gained some pretty good skills with my "little .410" over the years. Many adults would brag on my abilities and some cash wagers were made over my head regarding my abilities to drop all sorts of game with it...
But given the first opportunity, I upgraded to 12 gauge for larger targets as I knew first hand the limitations of the .410 in both shot pattern density at distance and outright knock down capability...
Brent
Chainsawjames
Moderator
I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a .410 shotgun. If you had to defend your home with one, I'm sure the person on the other end would be injured severely. Especially at the close range in a home. Nothing wrong with a .410.
seeker_two
New member
Hogdogs: Reading posts #3 & #8 seem to hint toward the ineffectiveness of the .410. And posts from other contributors here and in the other thread infer that using a .410, even with buckshot, is tantamount to using a .25acp. I think your three experts (Newton, mass, & math) would disagree.
I'm also confused as to how a 20ga using #3 shot is so vastly superior to a .410 using 000 buckshot. Does the #3 shot somehow penetrate deeper? I'd really like to know....
I'm also confused as to how a 20ga using #3 shot is so vastly superior to a .410 using 000 buckshot. Does the #3 shot somehow penetrate deeper? I'd really like to know....
Can't argue with you. Your well-researched (
) reasoning that the .410 has1) equal power
2) less recoil
3) more pellets are not better
is why the police and military use .410's when they have to stop people.
(Oops, they use 12 gauges. Guess they'e just not as smart as you. Of course, you could do some additional research and try to discover WHY the other 99% of the world disagrees with you.)
I very seriously doubt if anyone would disagree with you if you claimed that a .410 was a viable home defense weapon (so is a .22), but to claim that it's superior to a 12 gauge and be wrong on 2 out of 3 of your reasons is pretty laughable.
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Seeker, I do not try to claim the .410 to be "ineffective"... I do try to simply point out the potential to be less than effective is higher than a gun with a much larger payload of equal size pellets...
Pfletch, Certainly, I give that gun most of the credit for my current abilities with not only the shotgun but all guns in general...
And the best part... This kid who bucked formal training in anything... I never knew how much I was actually learning until looking back as an adult...
Them ol' cajun rabbit doggers with their sweet looking shiny wingmasters and auto loaders both braggin' up my shooting as well as some whining (literally) that I was shooting all the dang rabbits was my first hint that I was actually a decent shooter...
Not to mention, I also was a better woodsman and hunter and could setup in their woods in a premium spot to get the rabbit before it ever got pushed to their party...
Brent
Pfletch, Certainly, I give that gun most of the credit for my current abilities with not only the shotgun but all guns in general...
And the best part... This kid who bucked formal training in anything... I never knew how much I was actually learning until looking back as an adult...
Them ol' cajun rabbit doggers with their sweet looking shiny wingmasters and auto loaders both braggin' up my shooting as well as some whining (literally) that I was shooting all the dang rabbits was my first hint that I was actually a decent shooter...
Not to mention, I also was a better woodsman and hunter and could setup in their woods in a premium spot to get the rabbit before it ever got pushed to their party...
Brent
I too use a Circuit Judge for home defense. A small easy to move around with package is what I'm after. It has an 18 1/2 inch barrel and a pistol grip style stock. It's very easy to move around with this gun, I even took mine deer hunting this year. The sights are great and the overall feel of the gun is unmatched. It's also extremely light. I absolutely love this gun.
I was using 3 inch 000 in mine for home defense, but currently it's loaded with LeveRevolution .45 Colts.
For what it's worth, I also use an o/u 12 gauge with 3 inch #4, Winchester turkey loads.
Next idea is to use my Rifled Mossberg with mini slugs. Or maybe just Sabot Remington hollow points. They do incredible damage.
I was using 3 inch 000 in mine for home defense, but currently it's loaded with LeveRevolution .45 Colts.
For what it's worth, I also use an o/u 12 gauge with 3 inch #4, Winchester turkey loads.
Next idea is to use my Rifled Mossberg with mini slugs. Or maybe just Sabot Remington hollow points. They do incredible damage.
Shotgun693
New member
I've actually shot people with shotguns, not that it seems to matter much to some folks here. You stick to that .410 and under ideal conditions it might work just fine. I've never shot anyone under ideal conditions so I'll stick to a 12 ga.
Superior? Generally no. In certain circumstances where physical disability or limitations comes into play yes it could be.
Viable? Yes. There is certainly a plethora of less suitable options available in the world of firearms.
Only to a point. Otherwise the 18 pellet 00Buck 3 1/2" magnums would be considered the new baseline. The previous baseline would have been the 15 pellet 00Buck 3" magnum.
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OkieCruffler
New member
For hunting, with the exception of deer/elk, my father only uses a .410 mossberg bolt action. He uses it for squirrel, rabbit, dove, even duck (or did before the lead ban). I've witnessed him take a couple of turkey with it. He may very well be one of the most impressive shooters I've ever known. But on his side of the bed sits an old Stevens pump 12ga. You can't possibly believe that the .410 is the equal of the 12ga in effectiveness just becasue the pellets are moving at the same speed. 22 lR is shooting at the same speed as well, but mass matters.
First I think there are a couple of important things that need to be pointed out.
Nobody should EVER.... EVER EVER plan to use anything less that #4 buck for self defense. .... EVER. Anything less only has enough penetration power(yes even at close distances) to cause extreme pain and possible shock. #4 Buck is the bare minimum. FBI testing recommends #1 buck or better to ensure adequate penetration against an assailant.
There is no singular ideal weapon for everyone for any purpose. The best weapon is the one you have AND are comfortable using.
If you take 2 identical shells, made by the same manufacturer, etc etc the only difference is one is .410 and the other is 12 gauge, you will get nearly identical penetration with both. The .410 uses less powder with less overall grains propelling identical sized projectiles at near the same velocity. This means each projectile will strike with the same force and have nearly identical penetration. This makes .410 shells ADEQUATE for home protection.
The ONLY difference is... you get more projectiles per shell with a 12 gauge. More projectiles means more impact force overall, and more wound cavities. In 12 gauge with 00 buck you will get roughly double the number projectiles over .410. Which means per shell, 12 gauge is a better home defense round.
Weapons capable of repeat shots is a vastly better weapon than a single shot weapon. The more shots before you have to reload means a lot greater capability. You can use multiple rounds per target, or engage multiple targets. A single shot 12 gauge is vastly superior to a .410 for that 1 shot, but after that, they are both just clubs for as long as it takes to reload them. In a pump action, they are both just clubs for as long as it takes to chamber a new round and prepare to fire. This is where personal capabilities makes the big difference. For all except the experienced 12 gauge users, a .410 can fire MUCH MUCH MUCH faster.
If you are the only person in your household who will be capable of self defense, then the best weapon is the largest you feel comfortable with. If you can't afford a self defense weapon for everyone in the household who will be capable of defense, then it's wiser to get a weapon that everyone feels comfortable using. If everyone is comfortable with a 12 gauge, you are set.
For me and my family, I will use my .410 saiga 15rd shotgun. Everyone is trained and comfortable using it except the 12 y/o(still a bit heavy for him). We all can fire 2-3 rounds on target faster than most with a 12 gauge pump can fire and be ready to fire again. Those 3 rounds provide more wound channels and stopping power than a single 12 gauge round by FAR.
If you don't own a shotgun and have never shot one, go to a range and rent a 12 gauge. If, after practicing for 30 min or so, you think you can/will take the time to get proficient with it, you might consider buying a 12 gauge. Otherwise, rent a .410 and become proficient in about an hour of practice. Get a pump with the largest ammo tube you can find over a single shot, and a RELIABLE semiauto shotgun over a pump. Never use an unreliable weapon for home defense.
Nobody should EVER.... EVER EVER plan to use anything less that #4 buck for self defense. .... EVER. Anything less only has enough penetration power(yes even at close distances) to cause extreme pain and possible shock. #4 Buck is the bare minimum. FBI testing recommends #1 buck or better to ensure adequate penetration against an assailant.
There is no singular ideal weapon for everyone for any purpose. The best weapon is the one you have AND are comfortable using.
If you take 2 identical shells, made by the same manufacturer, etc etc the only difference is one is .410 and the other is 12 gauge, you will get nearly identical penetration with both. The .410 uses less powder with less overall grains propelling identical sized projectiles at near the same velocity. This means each projectile will strike with the same force and have nearly identical penetration. This makes .410 shells ADEQUATE for home protection.
The ONLY difference is... you get more projectiles per shell with a 12 gauge. More projectiles means more impact force overall, and more wound cavities. In 12 gauge with 00 buck you will get roughly double the number projectiles over .410. Which means per shell, 12 gauge is a better home defense round.
Weapons capable of repeat shots is a vastly better weapon than a single shot weapon. The more shots before you have to reload means a lot greater capability. You can use multiple rounds per target, or engage multiple targets. A single shot 12 gauge is vastly superior to a .410 for that 1 shot, but after that, they are both just clubs for as long as it takes to reload them. In a pump action, they are both just clubs for as long as it takes to chamber a new round and prepare to fire. This is where personal capabilities makes the big difference. For all except the experienced 12 gauge users, a .410 can fire MUCH MUCH MUCH faster.
If you are the only person in your household who will be capable of self defense, then the best weapon is the largest you feel comfortable with. If you can't afford a self defense weapon for everyone in the household who will be capable of defense, then it's wiser to get a weapon that everyone feels comfortable using. If everyone is comfortable with a 12 gauge, you are set.
For me and my family, I will use my .410 saiga 15rd shotgun. Everyone is trained and comfortable using it except the 12 y/o(still a bit heavy for him). We all can fire 2-3 rounds on target faster than most with a 12 gauge pump can fire and be ready to fire again. Those 3 rounds provide more wound channels and stopping power than a single 12 gauge round by FAR.
If you don't own a shotgun and have never shot one, go to a range and rent a 12 gauge. If, after practicing for 30 min or so, you think you can/will take the time to get proficient with it, you might consider buying a 12 gauge. Otherwise, rent a .410 and become proficient in about an hour of practice. Get a pump with the largest ammo tube you can find over a single shot, and a RELIABLE semiauto shotgun over a pump. Never use an unreliable weapon for home defense.
Bill DeShivs
New member
"FBI testing." ARRGH!!!! 
leadcounsel
Moderator
If the shooter does his part, across an HD typical room scenario, a 12 gauge is going to hit harder and put 2-4 times as many holes in the perp with EACH pull of the trigger over a .410, and twice as much lead weight (1/2 oz vs 1-1.25 oz). The kinetic energy transfer will be much, much greater. That's why the felt recoil is much greater on a 12 over a .410. It has more energy and mass.
Perps don't always come alone, and they often shoot back or jump on you. I want their ability to fight removed as quickly as possible to stop that threat. If you only get one shot (due to a failure, or being attacked yourself, taking cover, etc.) do you want to hit them with a 410 or 12?
The .410 may have more power than a handgun, but with a 9x19 I can dump 18 - 33 (glock super hi cap mags) rounds more accurately in a very rapid time, much faster than nearly any .410. And IF I'm not using the 12 ga, I'd go with the AK or AR with 30 round mags, easily reloadable. Few civilian self defense issues that can't be resolved with a full mag of 7.62x39...
If YOU want to use the .410 please go ahead. You're probably fine. But I'm in the camp that I have much better tools for ME and MY defense.
Perps don't always come alone, and they often shoot back or jump on you. I want their ability to fight removed as quickly as possible to stop that threat. If you only get one shot (due to a failure, or being attacked yourself, taking cover, etc.) do you want to hit them with a 410 or 12?
The .410 may have more power than a handgun, but with a 9x19 I can dump 18 - 33 (glock super hi cap mags) rounds more accurately in a very rapid time, much faster than nearly any .410. And IF I'm not using the 12 ga, I'd go with the AK or AR with 30 round mags, easily reloadable. Few civilian self defense issues that can't be resolved with a full mag of 7.62x39...
If YOU want to use the .410 please go ahead. You're probably fine. But I'm in the camp that I have much better tools for ME and MY defense.
Mannlicher
New member
everyone can believe what they feel is correct. Choosing a HD weapon is a highly personal decison.
I won't be following the advice to arm myself with a .410, but others can feel free to if they wish.
I won't be following the advice to arm myself with a .410, but others can feel free to if they wish.
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