Holsters: Not Printing vs Accessibility

Probably different viewpoints from different parts of the world. But my worries would never be if the everyday people around me noticed, but if the BG who is planning a hit on me, and is/has been carefully studying me and my habits notices I am carrying. That I don't want.
 
You really have to try to "print noticeably". That's because, no matter how you're packing, no one will notice.

I carried a 4” M-29 in an OWB holster along with 2 speedloaders for a month just for fun. At 5’9” and 145 lbs, it was obvious as hell. It stuck out a mile. No one noticed a thing.

Printing is a total non-issue. People are far too wrapped up in their own lives to spend their time examining you. No one’s looking for guns. No one will notice any bulges under your clothes.

I've been carrying daily since 1988, always OWB and usually under a shirt, since it's hot here. I carry full-size guns - 1911, G17, XD .45, etc. Never a problem, even though I don't take any special care to hide the gun.
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+1. Seriously, you could put on jeans and stuff an AR in your pants and walk straight through downtown and I'd bet $10 that not one person says a thing. They may look at you funny, but they'll write it off as some strange college hoops injury.

I used to be paranoid about printing, but now unless my shirt is actually wind-blown up and over my pistol, I'm good.
 
I agree completely and the point is not made all that often around here. You don't have to worry about (most of) the people you are in contact with from day to day but the ones that are the problem will have their eye on you and will probably have a practiced eye for detecting a concealed handgun.

Unfortunately we can't usually achieve the fast draws like the Lone Ranger could and from concealment, probably not under a second and nowhere near that if we are not in a loose, standing position--with a free hand. However, the real problem is probably that we would be starting well behind the curve in the first place.
 
Typically, their draws ran from 1.2 to 1.8 seconds depending on the size of the first target and the distance.
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Occasionally, when I shoot with a buddy who has a timer, I'll time my IWB draw and first shot. I'm generally in the 1.2 - 1.4 second range drawing from a CrossBreed IWB holster with no special accommodations for my clothing - meaning I don't "dress for the occasion".

I don't consider myself particularly fast, but I would think the practice necessary to get from 1.2 down to 0.8 would be a LOT more than to get from 3.2 down to 1.2.

As far as printing goes ... I regularly wear Under Armour (Heat Gear), Nike (Dri Fit) and Columbia (Titanium) shirts made from very thin material in the summer. I've never once been "busted" for printing under one of these shirts.

Edit: BlueTrain's point is well taken that we most likely will not be in a position of alert, unencumbered readiness (as I am when I'm waiting for the timer's buzzer to go off) when we need to draw our weapon from concealment.
 
The fact that we would not usually be in an unencumbered "ready" position might be taken as something important when thinking about a carry method but I wonder. While we might think that we are in some danger in a restaurant, sitting and eating, more likely we would actually be standing or on the move when in a place where there is greater than the usual risk of attack. If we are at home, inside, anyway, we are rather more relaxed (or even asleep) than we would be in other places and consequently we wouldn't have our guard up the way we would in other places.

So, in other words, it probably isn't worth thinking about how difficult it is to make a fast draw when you are on the sofa watching television or reading the Wall Street Journal. However, if you otherwise spend a lot of time sitting, like truck drivers, and are still concerned about your readiness, you will probably think more about alternative carry positions than I would.

Now, as far as noticing goes, here's something I've mentioned before. A child will notice before an adult because a child is not inhibited about staring at someone, but an adult will probably avoid looking too closely. Mind you, I have noticed a lot of young women who were having trouble concealing things properly, so I guess the rule doesn't always hold.
 
There is no one correct answer, part of the trade off for more concealment is more work getting your weapon to a position to fire. Remember when drawing, slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Find a setup that works for you, take a defensive handgun course so you get some instruction on a proper draw from what ever carry position you use and practice it over and over.

There is also no rule that you have to stand there flat footed if/when you draw in a defensive situation. Step off to one side to change the angle and create a little more space. Practice shooting from the hip at close ranges then move out and see how far you can accurately hit targets. I would rather clip a guy once or twice when he is coming in rather than let him close the distance before I get to full presentation.
 
This has been an interesting thread to me because I have been looking for a carry piece and have wondered how I want to carry and what I need to do. I've even bought a few shirts that are cut like Hawaiian shirts for the purpose but still haven't yet picked up a gun for carry. Anyway, I do have a few thoughts to share on printing.

I'm glad to hear that I shouldn't have to worry too much about printing. However, there was an incident in Las Vegas recently where a man carrying concealed (legally) was detected by somebody in the store who called police. The man made a couple of mistakes that got him killed.

First, he made a spectacle of himself in the store when he got upset about something, drawing attention to himself and making people around him uncomfortable.

Second, when he exited the store, the police were waiting for him and instead of following the officers' instructions, he lifted his shirt to show them he was armed. An officer interpreted that movement as an attempt to draw his firearm.

What I gleaned from this was:
1) as was pointed out by an earlier poster, don't draw attention to yourself.
2) you need to be prepared to be suddenly and unexpectedly confronted by police officers in case somebody does notice you are carrying because you are printing or have carelessly or inadvertently revealed your firearm. You may want to do some mental practice on how you will respond to officers so as to clearly present yourself as a non-threat. When something like this happens, it can be confusing and you may not even be understanding what the officers are telling you to do.
 
You may want to do some mental practice on how you will respond to officers so as to clearly present yourself as a non-threat. When something like this happens, it can be confusing and you may not even be understanding what the officers are telling you to do.
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I am a police officer and the thing we like the least is surprises that include sudden movements with the hands. If you are carrying and law enforcement comes up to talk to you, put your hands up in plain view and let them know you where you have your weapon AND where your ID/permit is. They will give you further instructions at that point.
 
When you start to carry CCW, you also have to modify how you do certain things - like bending over. I have learned NEVER to bend from the waist, always bend my knees. There are also a lot of 'tells' for when someone is carrying, like the 'clunk' when they sit down in a booth or pew with a hard back.

One of the things the new guys have to learn is stop touching your gun! You can see them, constantly touching with their hand or elbow to make sure their gun is still there. Wear your exact gear around the house until you are completely comfortable with it. Then FORGET IT.

And if you are dressed for the area you are in, with a heavy enough crowd on the street, and walk as if you know what you are doing, you can carry your gun in your hand at your side, and no one will notice! I did this more than once when I was a plain clothes LEO.

BTW, the material of your shirt is also a factor, lightweight, clingy shirts will print when a heavier weave shirt wil not.
 
When you start to carry CCW, you also have to modify how you do certain things - like bending over. I have learned NEVER to bend from the waist, always bend my knees. There are also a lot of 'tells' for when someone is carrying, like the 'clunk' when they sit down in a booth or pew with a hard back.

One of the things the new guys have to learn is stop touching your gun! You can see them, constantly touching with their hand or elbow to make sure their gun is still there. Wear your exact gear around the house until you are completely comfortable with it. Then FORGET IT.

And if you are dressed for the area you are in, with a heavy enough crowd on the street, and walk as if you know what you are doing, you can carry your gun in your hand at your side, and no one will notice! I did this more than once when I was a plain clothes LEO.

BTW, the material of your shirt is also a factor, lightweight, clingy shirts will print when a heavier weave shirt wil not.
 
I think that carrying a pistol in a reversed position (meaning with the butt forward on the right hand side for a right handed person) allows a marginally greater concealment for more body movements like bending over but it comes with disadvantages. It is a little slower on the draw but more importantly, you will end up pointing it at your own body as you make the draw. For that reason it is probably not to be recommended but for an inside-waistband carry, it is pretty much pointed at your hip anyway.

Alternatively, a crossdraw position allows the same thing, only if the pistol is far enough back to achieve the level of concealment you are trying for in the first place (for the primary weapon), it becomes that much harder to reach.

As far as touching the pistol "to see if it is still there," I understand. I find myself constantly touching or patting my wallet for the same reason when I carry it in a pants pocket, which I don't usually do. I might go back to carrying a purse.
 
For my purposes, concealed carry comes down to 2 truths --

1. If a civilian ever needs a gun, odds are that they'll need it very badly, very quickly.

2. An efficient carry mode allows re-holstering the firearm after shots are fired nearly as rapidly as the draw.


Any carry mode (think a fabric holster in tight jeans) that prevents a fast, effective draw offers many opportunities to fumble the draw in a high-anxiety response. As pointed out above, confrontations may not evolve into range-shooting-line stances and readiness.

Some of these "deep cover" concealment options indeed do a nice job of concealment, but in doing so they require convoluted effort to present the firearm rapidly and re-holstering it one-handed afterwards is virtually impossible. Some may argue that what they do with their pistol after a shooting incident is immaterial, however, I'm of the opinion that standing around with a pistol in your hand is not optimal, and re-holstering it is probably a better choice.

My opinions have guided my carry choices...

YMMV.
 
Don't take this the wrong way because I'm not really disagreeing with you. But some high quality leather holsters, especially those that are hand molded, can be difficult to make a fast draw from, at least when they're new. I've been experimenting with an almost new Gould & Goodrich belt holster for my Walther P5. It has a thumb snap but the fit at the moment is very tight and while not exactly fumble producing, you have to be very deliberate about your movements to get the gun out and it isn't even a concealment type holster. So basically the holster is an important part of your setup.

To say a confrontation will not be a shooting range circumstance is an understatement. Besides, many of us here, I suspect, have field conditions in mind more than anything else. But I'm no so sure that a fast re-holstering is nearly so important, and with some pistols, extra care is advised.
 
I think that carrying a pistol in a reversed position (meaning with the butt forward on the right hand side for a right handed person) allows a marginally greater concealment for more body movements like bending over but it comes with disadvantages.
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Do you mean a standard 15-degree forward cant? Sometimes known as the FBI tilt. http://www.highnoonholsters.com/_Questions/_questions.html#7 and http://www.highnoonholsters.com/_Questions/Molding_on_front_of_holster/Foward_Cant/foward_cant.html
 
To kazanski612, I meant a reverse draw, sometimes called a cavalry draw (or rather, a reverse carry). With this method, the pistol will generally be in a straight position with no tilt. The butt, which is usually the give-away sign of a hidden weapon, is to the front rather than to the rear. To execute a draw, you reach to the rear with the palm to the outside to grasp the pistol grip. It sounds a little awkward and frankly, it is. And when you are making the draw, the muzzle will almost certainly be pointing at some part of your body momentarily. However, that's also true with some other more common methods, too, which is why sometimes people shoot themselves in the foot or leg. In any case, the only advantage is slightly better concealment, plus you won't have the butt or grip of the pistol banging into things when you sit down.
 
I wear ugly Hawaiian shirts in the summer, if you can print on a shirt like this, then your carrying a DE .50 cal, a Ruger with a 7" bbl, or an .88 caliber that can shoot through schools
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That was the ugliest shirt Ive ever seen.. LOL thanks for sharing.
 
Blue Train said:
I meant a reverse draw, sometimes called a cavalry draw (or rather, a reverse carry).........In any case, the only advantage is slightly better concealment, plus you won't have the butt or grip of the pistol banging into things when you sit down
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What you said is true but let me make a slight addition: it also makes the handgun very accessable to either hand.

One of my "fears" is that my right hand/arm could be engaged or disabled, . . . and as nimble and flexible as I am, . . . it is still hard for me to access the gun with my left hand.

I have friends and associates who could not access their hangun with their off hand at all, . . . period.

There is a writer who put out an excellent book on being armed some years back, . . . I read it quickly, . . . he was living in Israel at the time, . . . carried two 1911's butt forward (one on each hip) and something near 6 spare mags.

Our "out West" cavalry carried their old Colts that way in their black flap holsters.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
Somewhere there are photos of cavalry troopers in the 1890s, probably 10th or maybe 11th Cavalry (all black units), armed with .38 Colt DA revolvers. Most of them had the flap turned back and tucked behind the holster and some had the revolver inserted backwards, that is, with the butt to the rear for a regular Western fast draw. They had their own ideas, I guess.

While in theory, it is possible to make a draw (can't bring myself to say "presentation") with either hand when carried like that, in a typical just-behind-the-hipbone position, I can't easily do that when wearing some clothes. It is possible but difficult, though better than nothing, I guess. Of course, it is also possible to reach your pistol carried in the usual over the hip pocket position with the other hand by reaching behind your back. Not easy, not fast but possible.
 
Doc, I strongly disagree with the "reverse draw" model.
The main difference is from a strong side him position, as the gun is drawn it may briefly point at your leg and foot (depending upon many factors - body shape, size, holster, etc.) An ND into those parts is usually not life threatening.

The reverse draw has you pointing your gun at your vital organs at the most stressful time most of us will ever face. An ND during that period will have major negative outcomes for you - possibly including your death.

And having been 'in harms way' a number of times in my life, I believe the odds of having my strong side arm/hand unavailable are far less than the possibility of an ND from the reverse draw.

BTW, the Cavalry carried their pistols like that because the sword was still considered their primary weapon. The pistol was only for use if they had 'lost or broken' their sword. The pistol was to be employed by the off hand, while the strong hand held sword, or controlled the horse.
 
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