Holsters: Not Printing vs Accessibility

M

monkofbob

Inactive
Hi everyone,

Just wanted some opinions on the tactics of different holsters.

The reason to carry is to be able to defend yourself if the need requires. The reason to conceal carry is to be able to defend yourself without anyone knowing or noticing. That is as I understand it.

The problem I'm seeing is that with some of the super concealed IWBs it makes it that you could not draw your weapon without having to fumble about with your clothes or make it painfully obvious that you are going for a gun, and to a threat that is within 10 to 15 feet those seconds going inside your shirt may make the difference.
See this link for what I mean about super concealed: http://www.usgalco.com/HolsterPG3.asp?ProductID=2753&GunID=280

You don't want to print noticeably, but you need to get to your gun when you need it.

From people who have experience drawing their weapon in stressful conditions what are your thoughts, and did your methods change after the experience.

Thanks,

monk
 
IWB is about the most concealable/usable type holster. With a little practice, you can quickly and easily clear your cover garment and get your gun going. You can also do it fairly discretely if you wish.

I think "printing" is given a little to much weight at times. Ive carried a gun everyday most of my adult life, and have found most people you encounter day to day are pretty much oblivious to what goes on around them. Im not saying Im lackadaisical in what I do, Im not, but I dont worry to much about it these days. Something loose and appropriate color wise is really all thats necessary.

If you act like youre going about your business and doing exactly what youre supposed to be doing, most wont pay you any mind. If you act/look guilty, or like youre up to something, youre likely to get attention pretty quick.


As far as things being close and speed, things arent always so black and white, and you may have to make some decisions and possibly some adjustments as to just what youre going to do if things start to come apart. The right answer may not always be the gun, at least right off. You may have to get creative. Doing something that disrupts their "loop" and opening the distance is always a good thing.

Pays to work things out in your mind on a regular basis. Your daily life offers plenty of material, and you can actually act some of it out to a point with people who dont even know they are the actors. Just dont get to carried away. :)
 
I understand, that of course I am aware, but why should anyone else notice, and after use it becomes a natural part of your outfit.

Your point about the Boyd Loop is one that I hadn't thought of, doing two things in the time it takes them to do one. I suppose that by even thinking about this means I start one step ahead.

I usually follow the Cooper Color Code in public, and I suppose at home, never hurts to be aware. But when I play out a scenario I forget that it is an ever changing event and doesn't follow a linear path.

Also, maybe i'll have to get in some practice with Hawaiian shirts :D
 
monkofbob

I carry OWB either a RIA CS, S&W 469, S&W 60 Ladysmith (my wife's) or a Armscor M206. Both the RIA and the 469 are 3.5" and the revolvers are 3'.

So its very easy to not print with them, the holsters I normally wear are all OWB except one shoulder holster for the RIA.
 
You don't want to print noticeably, but you need to get to your gun when you need it.
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You really have to try to "print noticeably". That's because, no matter how you're packing, no one will notice.

I carried a 4” M-29 in an OWB holster along with 2 speedloaders for a month just for fun. At 5’9” and 145 lbs, it was obvious as hell. It stuck out a mile. No one noticed a thing.

Printing is a total non-issue. People are far too wrapped up in their own lives to spend their time examining you. No one’s looking for guns. No one will notice any bulges under your clothes.

I've been carrying daily since 1988, always OWB and usually under a shirt, since it's hot here. I carry full-size guns - 1911, G17, XD .45, etc. Never a problem, even though I don't take any special care to hide the gun.
 
Ergo, I like your style! I too, have many ‘ugly’ Hawaiian shirts calling my closet home. When asked why I wear such shirts, my answer is always the same. And that is:

“When have a face like this, you wear a shirt like this!” I never have been asked to clarify my answer! But one thing for sure, the hide your carry firearm very well.
 
I've read over this thread a few times now, and a thought occurred to me.

not printing is a function of the holster. Well, mostly the holster, and how it interacts with your belt and the clothing you are wearing. Any person could potentially get any gun to conceal provided they have the right holster, belt and covering garments.

Accessibility, according to the epiphany I had, is a function of training. It doesn't matter what your holster is, who made it or what it's made of. Your training and building of muscle memory will ensure that your pistol is accessible in a matter of seconds.

so according to this theory, get the holster that conceals best for you, then train yourself to use it properly...

hope that makes sense. it did in my head...
 
Shirts and such

I go with the ugly shirt theory, mostly square bottomed, some hawaiian, others are non-ugly/plain. I wear OWB (Yaqui or Scabbard) and have no issues with people noticing it. (at least nothing obvious to me).

Andy
 
Accessibility, according to the epiphany I had, is a function of training. It doesn't matter what your holster is, who made it or what it's made of. Your training and building of muscle memory will ensure that your pistol is accessible in a matter of seconds.
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Thats pretty much it, although some holsters do work better/easier than others. Mostly the problem holsters tend to be the "gimmick" type holsters.

Once you figure out what works best for you carry wise, you have to practice (on a regular and ongoing basis) getting to the gun and getting it out, and doing so until its done without thought.

Having one type of gun, and a good holster, in the same place, all the time, is usually your best bet, over having a number of different guns and holsters, and constantly changing where and how they are carried. (Second guns are something else.)

You will also probably have to have a seasonal type transition period every so often, to make adjustments as your clothing changes with the seasons.
 
There are some key things that I look at in a holster.
1: Most important is accessability. You must be able to get a complete proper shooting grip in one movement. The trigger gaurd area needs to be cut so that your 3rd finger can be in the proper position at the top of the grip just behind the trigger gaurd. Many holsters have excessive material at this point. The extra material interfears with the grip position.

2: Belt retension: A secure belt attachment is needed so it will not come off the belt on withdraw. A thread thru belt loop is the best choice, even on a IWB type holster. A pain to get on but completely secure.
Also it is nice to have some rotation within the belt fit so that in different seating positions the holster can be slightly rotated to accomadate this.

3: Retension: An adjustable retension is so it can be adjusted to have a secure hold but not too hard to withdraw.

4: Proper cant and ride : Finding the correct placement of the weapon that is the best angle and height so that it is within your arms natural motion and angle.

I will post some pics later.
 
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Accessibility, according to the epiphany I had, is a function of training. It doesn't matter what your holster is, who made it or what it's made of. Your training and building of muscle memory will ensure that your pistol is accessible in a matter of seconds.
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Thats pretty much it, although some holsters do work better/easier than others. Mostly the problem holsters tend to be the "gimmick" type holsters.

Once you figure out what works best for you carry wise, you have to practice (on a regular and ongoing basis) getting to the gun and getting it out, and doing so until its done without thought.
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Couldn't agree more. Proper holster selection is key, but IMO a good GUNBELT can make even a mediocre holster work much better. The other thing I really agree with here is the importance of practicing regularly with whatever setup you carry, realizing that if you choose to carry in more than one configuration you best be practicing TWICE as much. A good rule of thumb is that a reasonable carry setup should allow you to draw from cover and get 1-2 rounds on target in 2 seconds or less. Sounds fast, but it's pretty reasonable if you're practicing and using a quality setup. :cool:
 
I generally agree with most of the comments here but to say that a draw that takes seconds won't be good enough for some people. You'll get an argument on that--but not from me. There are no secrets but you absolutely have to get that gun out when necessary without a fumble. I am afraid that, at least in my case, it might take two hand to do so from under some kinds of cover. For instance, for weekend work I like a short sleeve, pullover style heavy cotton shirt, the kind loggers wear with a half-zip front, work outside the pants if it has a square bottom. They conceal pretty well with my pistols but you just can't do a draw under a second most of the time and even then you have to be standing.

I have to disagree also about "no one ever notices" someone carrying concealed. It would be more correct to say "few people notice," but you can bet that if anyone is interested in the subject, they're on the lookout for anyone they think might be carrying. Anyone that teaches how to conceal is also going to teach how to detect. But, no, most aren't the least bit interested but some will be.

It should be obvious that drawing (or attempting to draw) your gun should not be all you should do if you are in a bad spot. Bill Cosby used to do a routine in which he pointed out that, in the movies, no one could ever get away from the monster that moved at the speed of a box turtle. Don't just stand there!
 
Printing is pretty much a non-issue as far as I can tell.I doubt that 1 in a 100 would ever notice,even if the gun outlined itself on the cover garment.Last year my oldest (40 yrs old) came over to the house to visit.After she had been there for about 2 hours she said,"Dad have you had that gun on the whole time that I've been here?"I had and what made it interesting to me was that I was not wearing any concealment.I had on a t-shirt that was tucked in my pants and a S&W revolver in an IWB holster,completely uncovered.It brought home to me that most people are so unconsious of what is around them that they would not notice an elephant in the garden.
 
From an on and off 45 years of experience, . . . I disagree:

1: Most important is accessability. You must be able to get a complete proper shooting grip in one movement. The trigger gaurd area needs to be cut so that your 3rd finger can be in the proper position at the top of the grip just behind the trigger gaurd. Many holsters have excessive material at this point. The extra material interfears with the grip position.
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How it is cut is totally unimportant, . . . how it holds the weapon is what is important. A cheap holster will allow the wearer's belt, pants, or even the holster itself to get in the way because it is simply that, . . . a cheap holster that began with a poor design.

2: Belt retension: A secure belt attachment is needed so it will not come off the belt on withdraw. A thread thru belt loop is the best choice, even on a IWB type holster. A pain to get on but completely secure.
Also it is nice to have some rotation within the belt fit so that in different seating positions the holster can be slightly rotated to accomadate this.
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Yes, . . . it must be secure to your belt, . . . but snap loops and even some paddles are as functional as a full belt tunnel.

If your holster rotates on your belt, . . . it is a loose, floppy, insecure and most likely, . . . apt to lose the weapon onto the floor or ground. The weapon must not rotate.

The desired "seating" movement is accomplished by sliding it forward or rearward, . . . or pulling your britches up a tad.

3: Retension: An adjustable retension is so it can be adjusted to have a secure hold but not too hard to withdraw.
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If you have to have a tension adjusting device on your holster, then you have a cheap chinese holster made for any one of 37 Heinz varieties.

4: Proper cant and ride : Finding the correct placement of the weapon that is the best angle and height so that it is within your arms natural motion and angle.
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You can put the holster and the handgun almost any place on your body that you can reach, . . . and if you are willing to take the time to practice with it, . . . it can become as simple as tying your shoes. Attempting to replace practice values with equipment values is a losing game from the start.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
They conceal pretty well with my pistols but you just can't do a draw under a second most of the time and even then you have to be standing.
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Few people can draw in less than a second under any circumstances. I was ROing at a steel match this weekend and kept an eye on how long it took shooters to get the first shot off. Only one beat the one-second mark and he was shooting an Open gun from a CRSpeed holster. Several did it with .22 pistols and carbines because they started from “low ready”. No one drawing from an actual holster beat one second. Typically, their draws ran from 1.2 to 1.8 seconds depending on the size of the first target and the distance.

There’s a “professional trainer” who posts on gun forums a lot and claims he can draw and get off an accurate shot in 0.8 sec from an IWB holster with a polo shirt over it.
I don’t believe him for 0.8 sec.

Getting a gun out from concealment in less than 1.5 sec is pretty good speed.
 
I think "printing" is given a little to much weight at times. Ive carried a gun everyday most of my adult life, and have found most people you encounter day to day are pretty much oblivious to what goes on around them.
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Same here. Presentation matters. I don't go around in a Glock hat and a "Protected by S&W" T-shirt. I just look like a vaguely bookish middle-age guy. In 20-odd years of carrying, I've only been "made" twice. Once was by someone who ran up and hugged me, and the other was by a very eagle-eyed police officer who noticed it when I bent over at the waist.

I'm fairly slim, I carry OWB, and I usually carry a medium to large gun under an untucked shirt.

Of course, where I live, there is no consequence to being spotted. If I'm reading the OP's profile correctly, he could be in real trouble where he lives. In that case, concealment would certainly trump a fast draw.
 
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