I would! Hardball is a notoriously poor stopper, particularly if it's smaller than a .45. It zips through flesh with very little disruption. For some reason, this is lost on a great many shooters who will argue and say that the military used it for years and that it works. Hogwash! Elmer Keith wrote of it in 1936 and it still holds true today. A good semi-wadcutter beats hardball every day of the week.
Hollow Points For Self Defense
- Thread starter stump1000
- Start date
I would! Hardball is a notoriously poor stopper, particularly if it's smaller than a .45. It zips through flesh with very little disruption. For some reason, this is lost on a great many shooters who will argue and say that the military used it for years and that it works. Hogwash! Elmer Keith wrote of it in 1936 and it still holds true today. A good semi-wadcutter beats hardball every day of the week.
You don't live in New Jersey do you? (it makes a difference)
Also some 9mm's won't feed HP's reliably, but I think that's mostly old service pistols designed for FMJ. Some hollow-points will still work, but you'd need to test them thoroughly to make sure they are reliable in your gun. (this may be a moot point with your new Ruger, but it is very relevant for my old Browning.
Also some 9mm's won't feed HP's reliably, but I think that's mostly old service pistols designed for FMJ. Some hollow-points will still work, but you'd need to test them thoroughly to make sure they are reliable in your gun. (this may be a moot point with your new Ruger, but it is very relevant for my old Browning.
Shocked no one bashed him for saying "clip" in place of magazine.
Welcome to the forum, by the way!
As a NJ resident myself, let me clear up a bit of confusion about hollowpoints in the garden state -- you CAN own them, you CAN shoot them for practice at a range, you CANNOT use them in a carry weapon (unless you are an on duty cop; regular citizens in NJ can't carry anyway), if you get pinched for a crime and have hollowpoints on you, it will be one more crime layer on top of whatever else you did. I see no law prohibiting their use in a self defense situation IN YOUR HOME. As far as the rules governing hollowpoints and hunting, I don't know what they are in NJ, but you should learn them before you go carrying them into the woods.
For what it's worth, I like Hornady's 9MM LUGER 115 GR FTX CRITICAL DEFENSE ammo. You'll see it advertised heavily on many gun mags' rear page... it's the bullet with the red plastic(?) nose where others would be openly hollow. Several magazines have done reviews of it and it has performed well. Given that the nose of it is not effectively hollow, it may feed better in a semi-auto pistol that otherwise may dislike an HP nosed bullet. Legally, I'm also not sure if it is considered an HP bullet in NJ terms, at least according to one article I read -- though again, in NJ you can't carry as a regular citizen anyway, so it doesn't matter much to me. Other states probably have differing views on what to consider this type of ammo.
Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. NJ laws are perplexing as it is. Take what I said as only a guidepost in your own reading/interpretation of the law.
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True dat. And in .357Mag for example it's a solid option (pardon the pun). But I do suspect they'll work better when driven at magnum speeds (at least 1,200fps and preferrably more) versus 38Spl/38+P speeds (generally subsonic).
The 9mm sorta splits the difference between 38+P and medium-hot 357s. So if semi-wadcutters were possible, they *might* work...but they're not.
On paper, yeah, it does look good. I haven't seen test data for the 9mm version but in both 38Spl and 38+P it appears to work very well.
It's a "pre-clogged hollowpoint" design with a RED (not "read") rubbery flat-faced insert into the hollowpoint. The rubber is supposed to squish outwards, starting the hollowpoint expansion process even if heavy clothes are encountered early; the hollowpoint expansion then continues in normal fashion once the round is past the clothes barrier.
Cor-Bon started this concept with the Pow'r'ball but that round was a bit light for most people's tastes...the rubber ball was huge and occupied a lot of the round's mass of only 100gr total in 9mm (165gr in 45ACP). Hornady scaled the insert down some and raised the projectile weight to 115gr which seems to work OK in 9mm.
But Hornady isn't loading it to +P velocity. In a big strong gun like the P89 I would prefer +P myself, and that takes us back to the Gold Dot 124+P.
If you're recoil sensitive or using a smaller/weaker gun, Hornady's answer isn't bad.
belveflowslykh20
New member
as previously stated use fmj at the range and for hollow points i really like golden sabers!
With the exception of some of the smaller handgun calibers like .22lLR, .25ACP, .32ACP, and .380ACP, JHP's are always the most preferable self-defense ammo. Unlike some of the more primative JHP designs of 20-30 years ago, modern JHP bullets are quite consistent in both penetration and expansion even through a wide variety of materials such as 4 layers of denim and auto glass. In 9mm, I like both Speer's Gold Dot bullet (loaded by Georgia Arms, Double Tap, and Speer themselves) and Winchester's SXT (particularly the 127grn +P+ Ranger Law Enforcement loading).
That used to be the concern.
Not any more, unless you're a "budget ammo" officiondo, and proponent of the generic HP with older technology. Then I'd be concerned. You know who your are, and I know you're reading this.
Gelatin testing shows bullets with newer technology to reliably expand after passing thru various layers of denim or even Carhart. DPX, HST, Speer, etc. There's plenty of info available.
Yes, I know gelatin isn't people, but reliable expansion into jello after penetrating heavy clothing barriers is a pretty good indicator.
Specific street results are hard to find, but I haven't seen any bad reports from LE depts. utilizing this ammo.
Using wadcutters for SD is WAY outdated. For those who consider wadcutter ammo more effective than hardball, I've seen data to dispute that, but opologize for not remembering where it is. If you bought a Ti .38 Spl and can't handle +P ammo, get some of Federal's re-introduced Nyclad std. pressure HP's.
Lose the wadcutters.
This link may be informative:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.223
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Short answer: Use a premium quality JHP for self-defense.
Unless prohibited by statute (e.g. NJ) the JHP is your best bet for self-defense. Some attempt to argue the "humanity" of them but the truth is that you're more likely to only need one or two shots to stop an attacker versus 4, 5, 6 or more with FMJ. This means less danger of missing, less danger of hitting innocents and even a higher probability of survival for the shootee.
In 9mm, I prefer the 124g +P loads. I've heard of too many duty failures with 115gr ammo and I have not been impressed with the performance of the 147gr ammo.
Premium ammo is expensive - from 75-cents to over $1 per bang. For the budget minded, you can load your JHP's on top of FMJ ammo in the magazine. This is after shooting 20-40 rounds of your selected ammo at the range to ensure smooth operation first.
If figure if I've expended 8-10 rounds from a 15-17 round magazine and I'm still shooting, I'm not making effective hits. If I'm doing that badly, I'll use FMJ while I seek retreat!
Unless prohibited by statute (e.g. NJ) the JHP is your best bet for self-defense. Some attempt to argue the "humanity" of them but the truth is that you're more likely to only need one or two shots to stop an attacker versus 4, 5, 6 or more with FMJ. This means less danger of missing, less danger of hitting innocents and even a higher probability of survival for the shootee.
In 9mm, I prefer the 124g +P loads. I've heard of too many duty failures with 115gr ammo and I have not been impressed with the performance of the 147gr ammo.
Premium ammo is expensive - from 75-cents to over $1 per bang. For the budget minded, you can load your JHP's on top of FMJ ammo in the magazine. This is after shooting 20-40 rounds of your selected ammo at the range to ensure smooth operation first.
If figure if I've expended 8-10 rounds from a 15-17 round magazine and I'm still shooting, I'm not making effective hits. If I'm doing that badly, I'll use FMJ while I seek retreat!
I mostly agree. Most wadcutters are "target stuff" that won't even hit 700fps from a snubby. I can't recommend that unless somebody absolutely cannot handle more recoil. Even then, Hornady's Critical Defense in 38 standard pressure is still likely viable.
But: Buffalo Bore's version is different. Much hotter, loaded to the bleeding edge of "standard pressure" and a viable candidate for defense. I think there's better stuff out there in hollowpoints but not a LOT better and in New Jersey the BuffBore wadcutter is the ticket in 38.
Oh yeah, the FBI says it therefore its gospel.
SORRY I dont buy that. I remember the FBI raving about the 9mm FMJ has more stopping power then the 45 ACP.
Also I delt with the FBI too much in my EOD duties to take their advice for much in the lines of firearms and explosives.
Pick you experts, I wont pick the FBI
RogerThat09
New member
That may be because most surgeons don't know the difference between a 9mm and a .45 acp even if you showed them the rounds before they were fired.
The bigger object makes the bigger hole. I always look at calibers as rocks.
Would you rather be throwing a small rock, or a bigger rock? The good thing about throwing smaller rocks is you can hold more at any given time. If your throwing bigger rocks make sure your a good thrower
IMO 9mm is better for outside, and 45 is better for inside. But I tend to carry 45 outside and 9mm inside.. go figure
Doesn't matter what they say.
Bullet technology has come a long way since 1986, and it was the FBI that set it in motion. Rather than continuing to purchase various available ammo, they told the ammo makers what they wanted them to make. And the ammo makers did. That technology has expanded well beyond the parameters initiated by the FBI and considers all kinds of different LE agencies, as well as civilian concerns.
...if you only have FMJ, I wouldn't lose sleep.
CraigC
9mm?
Do they make semi-wadcutters for a 9mm in semi auto? I almost want to say Fiocchi made some. Or maybe that was a flat nose?
I've seen SWC for some 45ACPs, but not sure if I ever seen them for 9mm autos, if I did, it was a long time ago.
TBS, I wonder if most people wouldn't lose the desire to continue to attack you if shot with FMJs or anything that would penetrate. Maybe you live in a neighborhood with people on crack and PCP.
That doesn't mean I don't pack HPs.
CraigC
9mm?
Do they make semi-wadcutters for a 9mm in semi auto? I almost want to say Fiocchi made some. Or maybe that was a flat nose?
I've seen SWC for some 45ACPs, but not sure if I ever seen them for 9mm autos, if I did, it was a long time ago.
TBS, I wonder if most people wouldn't lose the desire to continue to attack you if shot with FMJs or anything that would penetrate. Maybe you live in a neighborhood with people on crack and PCP.
That doesn't mean I don't pack HPs.
I should have worded it different in my original post. I'm not new to guns or handguns. I used to dove hunt a lot and my dad was always a gun fanatic while I was growing up so I've been around them and shot a lot of different ones. (Addressing the person that said I should take a training course)
I'm going today to get some Gold dot 124gr +p and I'll run a few through it this weekend to make sure they feed good.
I've heard some people say that they don't like HP's because if they hit something like a small twig or a piece of glass before they hit the target, they will come apart.
I'm going today to get some Gold dot 124gr +p and I'll run a few through it this weekend to make sure they feed good.
I've heard some people say that they don't like HP's because if they hit something like a small twig or a piece of glass before they hit the target, they will come apart.
rodwhaincamo
New member
That may be true with a generic HP going through glass, but not really with the quality HPs. I don't see a twig doing that even to a generic HP, but I am no expert. Google penetration tests and you can see how well each of the quality HPs perrformed.
kraigwy,
You have totally misunderstood buzz_knox's post. It is not about the FBI. It is about the hollow point bullet products now available now designed by engineers to meet or exceed the protocols that the FBI came up with. Simply, his point was that he hollow point bullets today are better at expanding in human targets at a wide variety of velocities compared to Hollow point bullets back before the Miami FBI shoot out.
#18indycolts
Moderator
for my 9mm I use 147grain HST, and my .40 I use 180grain HST.