History or Hate?

Of course, I agree with all of you in that Nazi memorabilia should be traded, sold, passed down through the generations and preserved as a part of history--an important part. It's like when I go to a Volkswagen meet; we shouldn't cut off the outer boundary of the early VW logo (a stylized swastika) just because it reminds us of something unpleasant. Indeed, the ultra-paranoid part of me wonders if the PC reaction to preserving Nazi history isn't part of a larger conspiracy to have us forget what tyranny looks like.

Despite all this, I am often concerned about the small but vocal racist element among us pro-self-defense types, and I like to make others aware of their presence.

Dennis: Wow. I would have loved to have been there in your class, making a stink alongside you.
 
One of my friends bought a Karmann Ghia (a Volkswagen with a sportier body, similar innards, 1970s). Her father has not spoken to her ever since he found out that his daughter bought a car from "Hitler's pet project". No self-respecting Jewish girl should own one, right?

Guess I better dump that Panzer IV parked in my driveway...pity, I got fond of the 75mm shortie :)

Just an overreaction, IMO. BTW, http://members.aol.com/~ghiapet72/ the story of that car is on-line....good reading.
 
Mort; Dont be concerned with "self defense racists".Worry about the political ones.They are much more dangerous.

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
My take is this: if a guy at a gun show or other sales venue *specializes* in Nazi, Klan, Confederate or such, I'm leery and probably won't do biz with him. If it's a "general collector" of WW2 (as in the case of the lead post) or Civil War, or "civil rights movement history", that's understandable.

But...there's one more thing that'll set me on edge: if a guy has a fairly ordinary selection of goods with ONE or two Nazi pieces, it's often a code for "se habla lunatic". Sorry, but that's the truth.

I don't make a public spectacle out of ANY of this, but it affects my personal shopping. Note however that I *would* own an old German gun in "functional, usable shape". An old "soldier's gun", NOT some sort of presentation piece. Kevin McClung of Mad Dog Knives sometimes carries an old .32ACP with a "1911-style operating drill" whose name escapes me that's an old Nazi proof gun, and I don't think any less of him for it, tiny eagle mark or not.

That on a gun table, no big deal. A Nazi dagger with prominent swastikas in one corner, or a garish medal...forget it. He won't even know WHY he ain't gettin' my business.

Jim March
 
Well this PC crap is pissin the heck out of me!!! If something offends you dont look at it! If someone is pushing something offensive on you then you should have every right to stop it, but people whine about some of the silliest things these days. A friend of mine has a neighbor who fly's the Rebel flag on a flag pole in front of his house, he has been called a racist!! Well he is white so he does fall into the category of racist :)....but his wife is Purto Rican(SP)! He is far from racist, but he admires his family roots and is proud of them. Here in AZ we have many dealers at the gun shows who sell Nazi stuff, most of them are collectors and just out to have some fun bartering and maybe to make a buck. If we start to eliminate things that are offensive to people we would have to blow the whole planet up. Everyone deals with things they are offended by everyday, it is part of life. DEAL with it!
 
First, I'd like to thank you all for the many positive replies.

I'll admit that there was a rather large selection of Nazi items when compared to items from other nations. I'd like to point out the reason is very simple. The Nazi's absolutly loved to dress up all sorts of equiptment, uniforms, etc with various swastikas, eagles,"SS" emblems and so on. And much of the workmanship in these pieces is excellent. Collector quality is a good way to put it. American GIs brought tons of this stuff home as war souveniers. In short, there are just more german artifacts than any other. Its been said the german was the best dressed soldier of WWII. So please don't berate the dealer, he sells what he can get. It's not his fault if items from other nations aren't as popular. The guys just trying to make a buck.
 
Dennis, you had some big huevos even in 9th grade, didn't ya boy!? Good for you!

Once, when I was at the Lincoln Memorial, I chatted with a man from Nigeria. He told me how much he admired Lincoln. I concurred he was a great leader. However, I also said I found it interesting (and still somewhat perplexing) how those folks could celebrate their liberation from England, and yet force their southern states to remain in the fold. I don't think he understood what I meant, and I confess that I still think many justifications for the War Between the States were odd.
 
Jeff,
In these two instances, I asked an honest question, they couldn't answer it, so I formed an opinion on the available facts. I didn't become adamant about my position until I was ordered to say (in front of the class) that I was wrong.

My Dad taught me, "When you're right, stick to your guns." (Interesting phrase considering our current politics.)

My "big huevos" were shaking like they were gonna hatch! I wasn't worried about the fops controlling the school. I WAS worried about what my Dad's position would be. Luckily, once I assured him I had not been disrespectful, he agreed the teachers should have answered my question or let me be. (Whew!) ;)

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited March 04, 1999).]
 
Grayfox wisely pointed out that WWII GI's brought this stuff back by the ton.
You dont suppose they were fond of Nazis do you??

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
The victor has always brought back the spoils. Since there is always less spoil from the enemy than there is surplus from your own side, it always fetches a premium. Add the "grass is always greener" syndrome and you get the people who think the other guy's stuff has to be better than what was issued to me.
My final thoughts. The pageantry of the Nazi regime and the horror of their programs creates a fascination with their relics. For some, there is a fascination that such a bizarre regime could arise out of what was/is considered one of the most civilized countries in Europe and the world. If it could happen there, it could happen here. That is the lesson that should be remembered.

By the way, I also enjoy the rationale of "he had it, but now I do". I picked up a Mauser 98k for a very good price a few years back. 1943 mfg, converted to 7.62nato by the Israelis and marked with a prominent Star of David on the butt. I value it more for that reason than I would an as issued rifle.

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Dorsai
Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal
weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the
monarch of all he surveys.
-- Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
 
Dorsai,
What an incredible post! Impeccable journalism at its best. You hit four points I have felt but I've never been able to express. Thank you.
The Soviet and East German flags I possess I took through immature, somewhat drunken fervor.
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OTOH, to "revere" the Nazi flag and to espouse its ideals is abhorrent to a rational mind. (And I don't care how many wonderful autobahns the Nazis built....)
Then again, there's my Confederate flag.... :)


[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited March 05, 1999).]
 
Most people forget that Lincoln only freed the slaves in the rebelling states, where he had no authority to do so since they were another country. The slaves in the non-rebelling slave states remained slaves.
That would have got you kicked out of school...
 
Phil,
Amen! We were taught that Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation "freed the slaves". Period!

I didn't learn the truth until I was told by a Southern friend stationed with me in Germany.

We didn't hear how & why West Virginia was formed either.

I doubted that schools could be as one-sided now as they were in the '50s until my daughters told me about some of the current shenanigans the schools are pulling. But, I guess that would have to be put in the "Legal/Political" forum...
 
I once owned a Walther P38 in very good condition with Nazi markings. Owning this pistol made me personally uncomfortable. Strange, for I also own a Japanese Koto(made in the late 1500's)katana that was in WWII Imperial Army mountings-that did not bother me. Illogical, yes.

Some interesting things, I have never seen in a history textbook.

Abraham Lincoln-

Unconstitutionally suspended habeas corpus.

Unconstitutionally imposed an income tax without even proposing a supporting constitutional amendment.

I have never seen his statement that the American people have the constitutional right to amend the Constitution or the revolutionary right to overthrow it in a textbook.

I have never seen the timing mentioned of the arming of the New York City Police Force.
They were first authorized to carry firearms during the draft riots during the Civil War.
 
I may get it trouble with this, but bear with me. Whatever else you can say about the Nazis, they WERE damned snappy dressers! The SS uniform in particular was a work of art. One look at those guys and you just KNEW that they were some serious bad a**es. This explains a lot of the collectability.
Having said that though, I don't own a single piece of Nazi memorabilia. I remember seeing a prototype dress dagger made by prisoners at Aushwitz. It's handle was made of human bone. Guess where they got the bone? I don't want to tell anyone else what they can or cannot own, but I wouldn't want to buy into a piece of history like that. I don't need to see it every day to remember it and know that it lurks around the edges of our society.
I have to agree with the above statement, they can sell it if they want, but not to me.
BTW I looked at that dagger and looked at the guy behind the table (something about him just screamed Klansman) and then walked away.
Parting shot.
I do wish they wouldn't sell this stuff at gunshows. Just like I wish they wouldn't sell cheap jewelery, coins, and other non gun related junk. I mean, it's a GUN show right?
I know, empty tables don't put money in the promoter's pocket.


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Your mind is your primary weapon.
 
UP DATE: As was mentioned earlier in this thread there is aformer hishschool here in Michigan that is now being used as a community ed building. The building was erected sometime in the mid '20's and inlayed in the marble floor is a American Indian symbol that looks like a backwards Swastika. This symbol in the floor predated the Nazi era by a goodly amount of time. Any way a mamber of the NAACP saw it one day and had a fit, demanding that the symble be removed. After due deliberation and consideration the local ADL stated that they had no problem with the symbol and that they thought it should remain in place.
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BTY: Do you know the major change in the relations with other countries that resulted from the Civil War? Prior to that event all treaties were signed, "The United States ARE entering into...." After the war treaties were and are signed, "The United States IS entering into...."

[This message has been edited by Jim V (edited March 08, 1999).]
 
Ken: Yes, they were very snappy dressers. The less snappy Russians sure beat them like they stole something, though.

Jim V: Fascinating tidbit concerning treaties. Thanks.
 
Political correctness is just a way for the liberals(socialist),to stop thoughts they don't agree with. So called "hate crime" laws are the same thing.A crime is a crime
 
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