Hiring 300 more AFT agents

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Don't mean to "throw gas on the fire," (maybe just a little), but y'all ain't seen nothing yet. In the last month or two, USA Today had an article on the results of the database used for handgun purchase checks. Nothing like it in existence until now. It includes military discharges, very old warrants (yes, that 15 year old out of state warrant that you never knew was issued is in there, even if NCIC doesn't have it). Imagine how many people have been convicted of disorderly conduct involving a family member, paid a fine, and were not told that under federal law they cannot purchase a handgun (or own, possess, buy, any firearm).

Stop at your local gun shop to order that .22 for your son, answer all the questions truthfully, and 4 to 5 hours later two armed agents are at your door, your home is searched, all your firearms are immediately confiscated, you are arrested and booked into the local county jail (if it is a Friday or on a weekend you will not see a judge till Monday). Your name will be in the local papers for the arrest and illegally attempting to purchase a firearm.

That deferred prosecution agreement from when you were 18 was not entered into the "database" correctly. That 15-year-old out of state warrant that you never knew issued (say for a bar fight while you were in the service). That argument you had with your girlfriend four years ago, you paid a fine and thought nothing more about it. That less than honorable discharge from the military 20 years ago (not dishonorable, but less than honorable). That person with a felony record with the same name as yours (No, they check your prints later, after you are arrested, your house searched, firearms confiscated, and you are incarcerated in the local jail).

All of the above will bring the "task force" upon you in a matter of hours and you will be immediately arrested, booked, and incarcerated. Yes it can happen to LEOs too.

USA Today reported on just a few of the above, and warned that many many more will come.

The agents are very polite, almost apologetic, as they handcuff you, search your home, and take you away in front of your family and neighbors.

You can't sue anybody later as the agent and the rest are immune from such suits.

With a little pressure, the local newspaper will print a correction, but in the meantime, the locals will not take your personal checks, your children will hear about it in school, and so will your co-workers.

Yes, we do need more Federal Agents. Y'all may get to meet them. You bought a handgun five years ago with no problems, but buy one now-what will that database turn up????


[This message has been edited by RR (edited July 02, 1999).]
 
Well, this has certainly caused a firestorm...As a LEO I cannot even try to defend the actions that our government took in the case against Weaver and the Waco incident. Their actions showed the unsavoury under-belly of how some would react in such a situation. However, it is my belief (and possibly mis-guided) that these organizations are made up of individuals that can also think on their own. To think that agents would blindly follow out orders that they did not believe to be legal or morally right is ludicrous. Sure, there is always some bozo out there that will do it, but the majority show a great deal of discretion.

If you were to see the amount of cases that ATF actually prosecutes, you would find that it is in fact a very small percentage of cases that are in existence. That is one major gripe I have with the anti-gunners; the laws that are in place are not enforced. How can any additional laws change this situation?

I know there will always be the cases reported of the poor bastard that has the men in black kick in his door because there was a rumor that he possessed an M16 bolt carrier. Hopefully, these cases are few and far between and are an aberation of the statistics. Personally, I have NEVER had ATF take a case for me. Not big enough. Not enough sex appeal. Keep in mind, that you usually have to be way bad before they'll even blink an eye.

Yep...Waco and Weaver certainly gave the ATF a black eye. One that will take it years to recover from. But keep in mind who caused the majority of the problems in both cases....THE FBI.

People are right in being sceptical of their government....hell, our country was founded on that theory. All I was initially trying to say was, from my side of the badge it doesn't look that sinister. Those on the outside don't always see how disorganized some of these organizations are. If you did, I don't think you'd feel nearly as threatened.

In the meantime, you....yeah, you. The one with the M-16 hammer....too late. I've got a fix on you. As soon as I sign off, I'm lacing up the Danners and getting in my black helicopter to come to your house.

We're all on the same side folks...calm down. In the words of the famous Rodney King, Can't we all just get along?

Peace.
 
Tell me what legitimate law enforecement purpose is served by donning complete camouflage clothing and face paint, equipping oneself with silenced automatic weapons, and then trespassing without a warrant of any kind? That is the opening scenario of the Weaver fiasco. A statement of fact is in order here: Anyone found on my property equipped as these agents were will be shot without warning-if you want to equip yourself as assassins and sneak around as assassins do, then be prepared to be treated as an assassin. On the other hand, you can show up with a search warrant in the open and you will receive nothing but courteous compliance with your search or arrest. The choice is yours.

Other FBI snipers present at Ruby Ridge testified after the fact that they ignored the "changed rules of engagement" for those rules were illegal. I wonder how their careers are proceeding today? Lon Horiuchi did not consider those rules of engagement illegal or did not care. As a result, he fired the shot that killed Vicki Weaver. Now if you take into account published accounts prior to the shooting of the training and accuracy of HRT snipers only two possible conclusions can be drawn: 1) Lon Horiuchi violated FBI policy on when to shoot or 2) he hit exactly what he was aiming at. Since the FBI has not disciplined Mr. Horiuchi for violating policy and procedure that leaves conclusion #2.


A federal judge has blocked state prosecution of Mr. Horiuchi on the grounds that he was following orders. The US hung many people in Nuremberg and Tokyo after denying them the same defense.
 
Of the leo's I know personally they are reasonable and good people, Im not sure what recourse they would have if given an order to confiscate firearms. They would most likely confiscate them, they still have an oath to follow and bill's to pay.
What concerns me the most is the fact that somehow in this country we can allow individuals to be exempt from the law, because they are sent to another area under federal mandate, we the ""citizens"" aka ''civilians'', have no recourse or protection except our belief in those 0rganizations and their intent---we know thats politicized, no agenda there.
Then there is that data base of names and serial nbrs and etc their collecting illegally, do you really think is just an excercise in data collection?---as an aside to this, Ive a older friend who was an leo in the 60's here in nashville I think they still occasionally show clips which use him in the academy here, sometime in the 60's while going through a bad marriage he was accused of spousal abuse, that was 30years ago and he was recently turned down to purchase a firearm....no further problems for the past 30years, and he was turned down.........one of the problems i see is that the leo's who, do to their job, will be forced to enforce laws that will drive a wedge between gun owners and leo's.........its a sad situation we find ourselves in.......and to change that we want to put the demo's back in for 4-8 more years but splitting our vote.....lol..fubsy.
 
Spartacus,

Believe it or not there are actually very legitimate reasons for LEO's donning the camo on someone else's property. While I whole heartedly disagree with the FBI's actions against Vicki Weaver, I don't think we should all be painted with the same broad brush.

Surveillance on a clandestine methamphetamine drug lab or marijuana field are the most common reasons we'll slide covertly into the woods; It isn't to kill or seize weapons, it is simply to keep us safe while covertly gathering information. These acts are legal without a search warrant so long as the items in question are outside of the curtelage and in plain view.

We deal with people who set booby-traps and improvised explosive devices to protect thier illegal assets, not to mention being less that enamoured with our presence in the first place. Being discovered is less than desireable in these situations.

We are NOT assasins. However, we are equipped quite nicely to defend ourselves. Anyone attempting to harm or "assasinate" us would certainly have a problem on thier hands.
 
7-2-99 1254 PM EDT Remember the time when a man with a badge was called a peace officer who enforced the peace between hi ivilians.
 
Let us not forget that the illegal nature of these 'assets' is unConstitutional. But their 'illegal' nature does lead to job security for LE, politicians, corrections, judges, lawyers, and the folks who deal in illegal 'assets'(folks who ain't too nice a lot of times either).
 
Benton,

That's very comforting, but I've seen too many incidents in which federals blatantly overstep their bounds. Ruby Ridge and Waco are only the most publicized outrages.

I'm sorry, guy, but some of us don't trust some of you. Nothing personal.
 
7-2-99 100PM EDT There was a time when a man with a badge was called a peace officer. His job was to enforce the general peace between his fellow citizens. He wore a blue uniform and was generally respected in his community. If someone wore a ski mask he was sure to be a crimminal. Today the police are called law enforcement officers and everyone here knows that most of these laws are revenue gathering laws of the corporate state:either Federal or state. We will be completely in George Orwells 1984 scenario when the law enforcement man comes up to you and says: Your papers please! National Id is just around the corner and one can see the revenue gathering boys having a field day.
 
A couple points come to mind:

1) The LEO is enforcing the laws passed by our legislators and/or the directives established with the tacit approval of our legislators.

Congress could easily outlaw, negate, or otherwise invalidate any of the libraries full of directives and rules established by the executive branch. But Congress only makes more laws.

Congress could wipe out the President's Executive Orders, but Congress only makes more laws.

Therefore, I believe the primary problem is Congress and it's pre-selected leader - the President.

2) Most LEOs only want recognition for superior performance so they can keep their jobs, feed their families, and "get ahead". Many are in law enforcement for the pure thrill of being a cop and the chance to "get the bad guys". Those LEOs who believe in our forefathers' visions are not the enemy.

Those LEOs who believe "We the People" refers to subordinates of the state - THEY are the enemy. They are successfully trained (brainwashed) to believe THEY are the law and anyone who does not immediately obey their every "order" suffers any consequence they, as the "law", wish to invoke.

Whether it's shooting an unarmed man, shoving a broken mop handle up the butt of a civilian they have mis-identified, or beating a kid because he has long hair, these cops will try to justify any and all carnage by hiding behind their badge. They blame their violence upon the victim. They whimper about the dangers and problems of the profession they volunteered for and disgraced. They truly believe THEY, themselves, are the law!

Bull. They are merely the modern version of Auschwitz guards. They are NOT the law - they are a travesty of the law. They are the shame of Law Enforcement and our country.

Until law enforcement effectively can "police" its own ranks, ridding their career field of the careerists and terrorists among them; the vast, vast majority of good men and women who keep us safe will suffer because of the thugs who wear the same uniforms.

LEOs suffer the same treatment teenagers suffer. The vast majority are good people who get little or no recognition because they are not "newsworthy". The few bad ones get all the publicity and defame the entire group.

It's time for a change. And I believe it must start with the Congress and its pre-selected head - the President.

But people keep wasting their votes on the same rotten apples.....

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited July 02, 1999).]
 
Bare with me here, I'm going to see if I can tie up a few loose thoughts.

Our military has been reduced by an unprecedented amount since the First Felon took office.

Our ordinance has been spent on useless, unconsititutional police actions.

Our military is spread all over the world involved in these "police actions."

There has been a documentable technical relationship between the USA and China that has increased China's military striking capability, thanks to our First Felon.

There are rumors, documents, eye-wittness acounts of UN forces training here on American soil in Urban warfare tactics.

There are rumors of concentration camps spread through-out the USA to hold those who would dissent some "possible" future political/military action. Remember the holding of Japanese citizens during WWII.

The year 2000 is just around the corner.

Through the WAR POWERS act of 1933, we, the people, have been declared the enemy.

Signs have been seen stating things like "Martial law" and "Military Cerfew" and when questioned about they have been routinely denied to have existed.

Gun restrictive legislation is on the rise and moving forward like the iceburg that Paul R. likened it to. These laws ride the emotional tide of, what seem to be, well-timed school shootings. Something that was virtually unheard of before our beloved president took office for his first term.

Confiscation takes place after registration in california, following a historical pattern of oppression.

Our judicial system deals in "favors" and forgets "justice".

We are taxed so highly (56% as Bookie explained) that we spend much of our days pursuing the almighty dollar just to survive, (add to that the individual debt the average American bares), and we find it nearly an insurmountable obstacle to dedicate time to preserving our freedom. Look at the donation factor of FOUP...

******

Gad! I got WAY off of my point...

I'm not concerned about the local LEO's coming through my door, as much as I am concerned about the UN troops occuping my town.

They don't know me. They are on foreign soil. WE would be the enemy to be oppressed. And any standing armed forces we have left would be a pitiful excuse for defense...

That's all I wanted to say...

(see what happens when you guys deprive me of my sleep... :))


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John/az

"They come, they eat, they leave...
"They come, they eat, they leave...NOT!!

Bill Clinton (aka: Hopper) Al Gore (aka: Molt) Janet Reno (aka: Thumper)

Ants UNITE!
 
Well said John. I couldn't have said it better.
Back in 1970, while stopping for a meal in a small western town, I watched the local gestapo slap a girl around, and beat the crap out of her male companion. Their food got dumped on the ground. He was left bloody. What had they done? The guy had long hair and a short beard. He was not filthy, and both he and his girl friend were neatly dressed as "hippie," Their car had a wild paint job, but was a new model Mustang of 1970. I would have judged them and california "psuedo hippie" They had CA plates on their car. The cops kept screaming, yes screaming "You dirty f**king hippies stay out of our town. We don't want you filthy hippies" ad nauseum.
I was scared. It was summer and they had the top down on their car. I had long hair and a beard at that time, and I was moving to that town because I had just been hired to my job and it was located in that small (small-minded) town.
I decided at that time that I would not shave my beard or cut my hair. I also decided that if they did to me what they did to those two innocent kids, I would sue the crap out of them.
Gads! I'm getting mad as hell thinking about it again. Time to cool down.
Paul B.
 
Quote of law:
"Surveillance on a clandestine methamphetamine drug lab or marijuana field are the most common reasons we'll slide covertly into the woods; It isn't to kill or seize weapons, it is simply to keep us safe while covertly gathering information. These acts are legal without a search warrant so long as the items in question are outside of the curtelage and in plain view."

Yeah, since the 4th Amendment protects our homes, it doesn't apply to our fields. Even when fenced and other assertions of the right to privacy have been made. Another reason to believe that the Supreme Court won't help us a bit. Another reason to stay prepared to hit the re-set button on this now-failing experiment in Liberty.

If I had a webcam, you could see the smoke pouring from my ears.

Grr...

Quote:
"They would most likely confiscate them, they still have an oath to follow and bill's to pay."

Well, if that oath includes protecting the Constitution, then maybe you should screw the bills and the job and the pension and everything else and frag the supervisor who demands that you execute an illegal order.

Is there no room for courage any more? Get out of debt and be FREE to resist!

Some of us remember Lt. Calley. His ideological progeny are increasingly populating our LEO community. I fear. Greatly.
 
Ivan8883-
Actually Weaver received $2.2 million in an out of court settlement to settle the wrongfull death lawsuits he was bringing against the federal govt.

Benton Quest -
You may be able to verify some information I got. After the Waco mess some of the ATF agents involved got in a bunch of trouble. They were eventually hired back. While speaking with another agent about my concern I was told not to worry because these guys were put in places where they could do no harm and some were no longer even allowed to carry firearms in their new jobs. Some of them have since left the Bureau. Does this sound accurate to you?
 
The methanphetamine lab. Oh yes. That was one of the "reasons" that the federales just had to get David Koresh. That and having sex with children. Or was it illegal weapons? It is all so blurred.
Did they find any of that awful stuff? Didnt the bulldozers make it difficult to tell what really was there?
And what about using U S military troops and
equipment to kill U S Citizens SUSPECTED of
violating the law? And what about killing a whole lot of innocent men,women and children at the same time?
Our government has a lot to answer for. It is not enough to cloak yourself in ideals and professionalism when you are part of an apparatus that does such unlawful acts.


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Better days to be,

Ed
 
Ed, some clarification is in order. You are correct that there were some questionable tactics used to obtain the search warrant. Child abuse is not a federal offense and if it were it would probably not fall under ATF jurisdiction. The U.S. DA in Waco was bucking for a federal judgeship and was trying to look good. The judge that issued the warrant did not feel good about it, which is why he did not extend the time and ATF went anyway. The child abuse and full auto complaints had been investigated by the county sheriff in the previous few months and no violations were found. Your comment about the bulldozers is amusing. The compound had double steel doors at the entrance. When congress was investigating and questioning the ATF tactics, they must have a target to shoot at before being allowed to fire, no blind shooting, these steel doors that would have shown ATF shooting through them blindly seem to have disappeared. How good an investigative agency, hello FBI, does it take to LOSE two 3' X 7' steel doors? If the FBI is no better than that they certainly should not be allowed firearms, they might lose them too. Either that or the agents are guilty of withholding evidence. Gee criminals investigating criminals. So is the FBI truely a bunch of idiots for losing 42 sq feet of steel or a bunch of liars?

I also want to point out that the FBI did not kill those people nor did they set the fires. That was Koresch's doing and sole responsibility. On the other hand, when the FBI went after the murderer of a Denver radio talk show host, they did fire at least two incendiary rounds from the tear gas launcher into the murderers cabin in an attempt to burn him out. It seems to be SOP for the FBI to fire them up when in remote areas to drive out the BG's, remember the SLA fire in Ca. in the 70's, but it didn't happen in Waco.

I do not know what kind of coverage the rest of the country got on the trial but it was held 75 miles down the road from me. In some cases it is legal in the state of Texas to shoot and kill law enforcement officers. Because of this none of the Davidians were convicted of murder by the jury. The federal judge did not like the light sentences recommended by the jury and slapped the defendants with heavy sentences. The jury was outraged, and in a press conference after the sentencing the foreman stated that had they known the judge was going to go against their wishes they would have returned a not guilty verdict on all counts.
 
Cheapo...

If you should find me or one of my fellow le brothers on your property, chances are quite good you did something to deserve it. "Privacy" in and of itself does not give you the right to break the law, in this case the manufacturing or cultivation of a controlled substance. If you're not cooking or growing dope, you don't have to worry about me. He who is doing no wrong need not fear the peace keeper.

Jeff...

I had in fact heard the same thing that you did...many agents got canned or transferred. Beleive me the Waco event severly defanged ATF's "tactical" ability. There are now many more checks and balances in place now to prevent a reoccurance. The biggest problem with Waco was that the operation was conceived and planned by people with no tactical training or experience. All of the key "tactical" players advised against it. Most were under the assumption that they should snag Koresh when he slid out for one of his jogs. But...someone wanted a bigger media splash....and they sure got it.

Back to Cheapo....

Yes I have bills to pay and I do need my job...but I will NEVER follow an order that I believe to be illegal or morally wrong. I enjoy my job, but truth is, I could make a lot more money doing just about anything else. I have very strong principles when it comes to this topic. I took an oath, and I treat it seriously.

As far as bad cops...they're out there. Rogue federal agents? You bet. Are there that many? No...very small percentage...but the few bad apples do seem to ruin it for everybody.

Being on a tactical unit we are also always questioned as to why we do things the way we do. Why? The reason is almost always the same. Safety. For EVERYONE involved. The faster we hit a building, the less chance there is for resistance. That means no one dies...on EITHER side. The bottom line here is I'M GOING HOME!

Now...these tactics may seem rather unsavory to some. But if you and or a family member were pinned down in a local business being held hostage by a crazed gun man, my guess is you'd be pretty f***ing happy to see me and my pals hit the door.

Once again, its the old adage, "I don't want to see you, but if I need you, you'd better be there."

Hmmm.

Fact is, I am a gun guy...wouldn't be on this board if I wasn't. LEO's , for the most part are VERY pro-gun (even if the media tells you otherwise).

Maybe the day will come when someone tries to illegally take your gun away. But, it won't be me. Why? Because I'll be on your side...just like I am today.
 
Benton Quest wrote:

"He who is doing no wrong need not fear the peace keeper."

Benton, I would hope that you have other "thoughts" to add to that statement. "He who is doing no wrong need not fear the peace keeper." This is exactly the "theory" that is and continues to erode the civil rights of all citizens in this country. A national id number for all citizens. Why not? If you are not committing crimes, what do you have to fear? Why not have it tattooed on everyone at birth? Why not? If you are not committing crimes, what do you have to fear? Law enforcement having full access to all health and financial records of all citizens without having to show cause in a court of law. Why not? If you are not committing crimes, what do you have to fear? Allowing LEO units such as yours to use planes to fly over our properties using infrared and other technologies. Why not? If you are not committing crimes, what do you have to fear? Allowing law enforcement to tap our phones, read our mail, without having to show cause in a court of law. Why not? If you are not committing crimes, what do you have to fear? Allowing police roadblocks to stop all vehicles for DUI checks, searches for drugs. Why not? If you are not committing crimes, what do you have to fear?

Get the point. This country's system of justice is (or was) predicated on individual liberties. "He who is doing no wrong need not fear the peace keeper." I hope you misspoke. If not, we need to fear you and others like you. We, and I mean most citizens of this country, would rather not have every meth lab destroyed if it meant the further erosion of our civil liberties, and the further intrusion of goverment, i.e., police, i.e., YOU, into our lives. We do not want you flying over our properties, shifting through our garbage, reading our mail, tapping our phones, reading our email, having acess to our health and financial records. We want you to do your job but we want to severely limit your ability to do your job. If we do not, we will have a police state, and that is not what our forefathers contemplated when they wrote the Bill of Rights. Yes, we need to fear the "peace keeper."

Do you disagree with ANY of the above???
 
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