High round counts for civilians

O

OhioGuy

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Does anyone know of any documented cases of a civilian (CCW in particular) needing to fire a "high" number of rounds in a defensive encounter? I probably would define "high" here as "more than would fit in a commonly carried CCW weapon."

So let's just say "more than six" since I'd have to start somewhere.

What about "More than 12?" To represent a revolver or single-stack gun with one reload.

More than 15? To represent the midsize semi-auto, Glock 19 or equivalent.

30? The above, with a reload.

I ask because in the seemingly endless "how much ammo is enough" discussions, examples are frequently given from law enforcement in which a cop had to take down two criminals, and he hit them both 8 times but they kept on coming, so thank goodness he had two spare magazines with him that day, etc.

But of course, the majority of civilians would never be in comparable situations because those usually arise from police chasing, arresting and intervening with armed criminals. So I don't see the applicability of that data to the CCW case. I always hear this rule of thumb that "3 shots, 3 seconds, 3 feet away" represents the most likely violent encounter.

Anyway, please post if you are aware of concrete examples. I am not trying to start another double-vs-single stack or everyone-vs-revolvers debate. I
 
I havnt seen a lot of those statistics. Depends on the situation, and all are different.
0 is enough if the bad guy believes it’s in his interest for you not to shoot.
1 if you’re a marksman and stop the threat with 1 shot.

It goes up from there to infinity if you’re taking on a cartel squad or a SWAT-like team.
But if you read NRA’s Armed Citizen, it would appear 1 mag of 10 would be enough 90+% of the time.
 
The 3 3 3 quote is a, misunderstood quote.
The FBI doesn't keep distance stats except for officer fatalities.
And the average is more like 4 to 5 ft. Even for that.
If your arming and training for 3 ft 3 rds 3 sec, your training to die.
Info can be found at at fbi. gov site.
 
I have seen several videos where a civilian emptied several magazines or guns. Usually while defending home or business.
The Jewelery store owner with a half dozen revolvers.
There was a guy who has a shoot out from in his house to a car full of people in a car in the driveway.
A second magazine is also important for malfunctions.

The better question is, are there any documented cases of CCWers being found dead with empty guns.

This guy seems to run out of rounds, but not in the US. Video is jaw dropping though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMADRu9CE9w

Here is one that includes the shooting in the driveway. Attempted home invasion with a full auto involved I believe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps3gPpjLNJw
 
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Added. The only substantial study of distances I'm aware of ever done was for police magazine by Fairborn. The distance average was 14 ft.

The attack can happen at any distance from 2 ft to 50 yrds or more. By any number of attackers.
 
The Greg Ferris stories have multiple shots fired. Ayoob has written it up. Two robberies at a gun store where Ferris used several guns in the course of the fights, IIRC.

http://proarmspodcast.com/107-ferris-firearms-robberies/ - This is one of the incidents.

I'd note for the shotgun fans.

1. You can miss close up with a shotgun.
2. The pellets can go across the street
3. There was a civil suit threat even in this clearly self-defense incident.
4. The shotgun was effective.
5. Under stress, Greg forgets his sights on the first shot.

Second incident

1. Bad guy screws up a shotgun and missed close up.
2. Greg fires 7 shots from a 38 Super
3. Assistant joins fight with shotgun multiple shots
 
Take this for what it's worth.
Depending on the scenario, location, and a host of other factors, a SD shooting incident may not involve taking a bead on a full profile adversary(like the cardboard targets at the range). I live in rural America and there are many situations in which simply returning fire will be enough to discourage an aggressor. With less concern that misses may injure innocents, I may be able to stop the attack w/o ever hitting the attacker. Put this into perspective: Bad guy thinks he's the only armed participant only to discover those buzzing sounds are bullets flying past him. Bad guy changes mind and boogies. I have no problem at all sending bullets at, near, or around the BG so yes, a high round count is worthwhile.
In the military, returning fire even if inaccurate is VERY important. First thing in an ambush is establish fire superiority. You can't do that with a 5 shot snubby.
 
I recently seen a video in I wanna say India?, Guy had a revolver, 3 attackers, he hit a couple of them but ran out and then they beat him with sticks.

If it's a 1on1 encounter I think a 5 shot 38 will get you thru it usually.
And I know several instructors who carry as such.

Look no one knows what you'll encounter that's why those of us carry do so in the first place.

However I'd rather have more than I need.
I carry 18+1 +1 reload, and it would be +2 reload if I had room on the belt.
I feel very comfortable with this level.

Having said that regardless of where the rule of 3 came from.
I believe that is the most common scenario, Logically it makes sense but I prefer to have it and not needed it then need it and not have it.
 
Every time this comes up, you support the antigunners' wish to ban higher capacity magazines.

It is that simple. Do we have to do this discussion again?

Would Jim Cirillo say to ban higher capacity guns as you don't need more?! If it saves one life!

He carried two revolvers and a shotgun usually on stakeouts. I guess he wanted more than 5 - and he probably was a pretty good shot compared to most.
 
"...FBI doesn't keep..." Highly unlikely anybody else does either. It'd be a useless statistic that really means little. The whole mag capacity argument by the assorted anti-firearm gangs is mostly the result of pretending to do something about criminal activity. Nothing to do with CCW. There are very few documented incidents where CCW holders were involved at all.
"...wanna say India..." No military or police cartridges allowed for civilians in India. Biggest allowed is .32 S&W.
"...3 feet away"..." Both shooters die or are severely injured.
 
I keep two speed strips in my pocket when carrying my SP101, for a total of 17 rounds. When I carry my full sized semi-autos, I don't carry any extra mags. I'm not looking to get into any prolonged shoot outs, so the 14-17 rounds should be more than enough. If not, I guess I get to meet Jesus sooner than I thought.
 
Does anyone know of any documented cases of a civilian (CCW in particular) needing to fire....
Click to expand...
Are you under the impression that there is a process for collecting such data?

When you read news accounts of self defense shootings, do you routinely see any specific mention of how many rounds were fired by defenders?

If you had any such data, what might you expect to conclude from them?
 
OhioGuy said:
Does anyone know of any documented cases of a civilian (CCW in particular) needing to fire a "high" number of rounds in a defensive encounter?... QUOTE]

I am guessing the answer is, "No."

But, John Wick would not even consider carrying a single stack, much less, God forbid, a wheelgun.
Jack Reacher would neither.
Nor, Matt Damon.

:D
Click to expand...
 
Ghost1958 said:
The 3 3 3 quote is a, misunderstood quote.
The FBI doesn't keep distance stats except for officer fatalities.
And the average is more like 4 to 5 ft. Even for that.
If your arming and training for 3 ft 3 rds 3 sec, your training to die.
Info can be found at at fbi. gov site.
Click to expand...
"if you're arming and training for 3 ft, 3 rds, 3 sec"

OTOH, I would take the trouble to use your defense gun
up close on some paper. POI may surprise you. Usually not
the same POI as 7 or 10 yards. Single handed up close, and weak hand
drills may also be in order.
 
It's hard to find that kind of information.

Lance Thomas was involved in 4 different gunfights when he had a storefront jewelry/watch store. Because he was involved in so many gunfights and survived them all, at least two authors wrote about him. As a result we have more information about his gunfights than is normal.

In one of his gunfights, he fired 3 shots.
In the second he fired 19 shots, emptying 3 guns in the process.
In the third, 8 shots.
In the fourth, he fired more than 10 shots. I can't find an exact figure. He had to reload at least once in this gunfight and the author characterized the total number of shots he fired in all 4 gunfights as "more than 40" which means that this fight had to account for more than 10.

So yes, more than 6. Yes, more than 12. Yes, more than 15.

In terms of a full-sized carry pistol like a Glock 19, his highest round count gunfight would be equivalent to emptying the gun and getting part of the way through a spare magazine.

In terms of a single-stack pistol holding 9 rounds (8+1), it would be equivalent to emptying the gun, reloading and emptying the gun again, reloading a second time and firing 2 more rounds.

In terms of a compact .380ACP holding 6+1 rounds, it would be equivalent to emptying the gun, reloading twice and being left with an empty gun when everything is over.
 
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