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High grade FMJ rounds?
- Thread starter 9mm
- Start date
I'm not sure I follow but would this be what you're thinking along the lines of...http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=936
Good question....I just bought a Glock 19 for my wife and three boxes of practice ammunition...Federal, Winchester and the cheapest Remington HP's I could find. I was trying three brands to see which this new pistol preferred and looking for the cheapest ammunition I could find. Normally, I shoot nothing but my own handloads, but she and I are signed up for one of Front Sight's Defensive Handgun Courses, later this spring and they specify only factory ammunition can be used. It's my 2nd trip out there...they run a good range, and the training is 2nd to none...talked my buddy and his wife into going with us as well...My wife'll complete the training with the Glock and I wanted to find a good load that would give her some confidence in the gun.
At any rate, the local Walmart had 9mm's in 100 round bulk packs as follows:
Federal 115 gr FMJ's at $19.97 per hundred count value pack
Winchester 115 gr FMJ at $22.97 per hundred count value pack
Remington/UMC Green box 115 gr JHP at $27.97 per hundred count
At 7 yds, I got the following groups from a two-handed Weaver Stance:
Federal .... 5/8" for 7 shots, average of two groups
Winchester.... 1-1/4" for 7 shots, average of two groups
Remington.... 1-1/2" for 7 shots, average of two groups
Certainly not a sandbag test of what the gun is capable of...but it does tell me that Federal (and for once, the cheapest) is the best so far. I ran the brass through my Dillon 550B with my standard load of Win 231, and Winchester's 115 gr, bulk JHP (bought ten years ago for a nickle a piece!!) and got groups of about 3/4" for the given 7 shots.
Moving back to the ten yard line, the relative standings remained the same, tho groups opened a little...I was firing in steady moderate rain and didn't spend a lot of time on it. All three were well under two inches, the Federal running an inch and a quarter. I haven't tried these accurate Federals in my other three 9mm's (a Colt 1911 gov't, a Combat Commander, and a Beretta 92), but I'd be surprised if they didn't like them as well.
I've not chrono'd any of these factory offerings, but did notice that the Federals ejected into a nice neat pile a foot and a half to my right rear, the Winchesters, a bit farther out, and the Remingtons about six feet out and rear....without chrono'ing them, I'd say the Federals were a little slower than the other two, but still cycled the action just fine...no FTF's or ejection problems.
One last note, Federal, in my experience lately has been doing a sterling job on their quality control with regards to pistol ammunition. Six months ago, I took delivery on a new Ruger SR1911, and again as in the case of this most recent Glock acquisition, their FMJ offering was the best grouping factory ammunition tested. It was .45 ACP obviously, and 4 boxes of it mirrored the results I just had in 9mm. Too, it surprised me to find that they'd loaded it with small pistol primers, the .45 that is...had I noticed that in the store, I'd not have bought them, just to avoid the hassle of sorting my .45 ACP brass for reloading...as it turned out, the accuracy was superb from them, and I keep them separate from my large primer'd .45s without much trouble.
HTH's, Rodfac....
At any rate, the local Walmart had 9mm's in 100 round bulk packs as follows:
Federal 115 gr FMJ's at $19.97 per hundred count value pack
Winchester 115 gr FMJ at $22.97 per hundred count value pack
Remington/UMC Green box 115 gr JHP at $27.97 per hundred count
At 7 yds, I got the following groups from a two-handed Weaver Stance:
Federal .... 5/8" for 7 shots, average of two groups
Winchester.... 1-1/4" for 7 shots, average of two groups
Remington.... 1-1/2" for 7 shots, average of two groups
Certainly not a sandbag test of what the gun is capable of...but it does tell me that Federal (and for once, the cheapest) is the best so far. I ran the brass through my Dillon 550B with my standard load of Win 231, and Winchester's 115 gr, bulk JHP (bought ten years ago for a nickle a piece!!) and got groups of about 3/4" for the given 7 shots.
Moving back to the ten yard line, the relative standings remained the same, tho groups opened a little...I was firing in steady moderate rain and didn't spend a lot of time on it. All three were well under two inches, the Federal running an inch and a quarter. I haven't tried these accurate Federals in my other three 9mm's (a Colt 1911 gov't, a Combat Commander, and a Beretta 92), but I'd be surprised if they didn't like them as well.
I've not chrono'd any of these factory offerings, but did notice that the Federals ejected into a nice neat pile a foot and a half to my right rear, the Winchesters, a bit farther out, and the Remingtons about six feet out and rear....without chrono'ing them, I'd say the Federals were a little slower than the other two, but still cycled the action just fine...no FTF's or ejection problems.
One last note, Federal, in my experience lately has been doing a sterling job on their quality control with regards to pistol ammunition. Six months ago, I took delivery on a new Ruger SR1911, and again as in the case of this most recent Glock acquisition, their FMJ offering was the best grouping factory ammunition tested. It was .45 ACP obviously, and 4 boxes of it mirrored the results I just had in 9mm. Too, it surprised me to find that they'd loaded it with small pistol primers, the .45 that is...had I noticed that in the store, I'd not have bought them, just to avoid the hassle of sorting my .45 ACP brass for reloading...as it turned out, the accuracy was superb from them, and I keep them separate from my large primer'd .45s without much trouble.
HTH's, Rodfac....
There are differences.
For instance, some ammo is made by mixing ground scrap metal with the lead, they use the scrap metal as filler.
Also, some ammo, instead of having a copper "jacket" merely have a very thin coating of copper on them, sometimes called a "copper wash"
These kinds of rounds are banned at the indoor ranges in my area because when they impact the strike plate at the range they disintegrate and the non-lead bits of various and assorted scrap metal kick up sparks.
I don't know how a round like this would act in a body, I don't think anyone has studied how these bullets act when they hit bone head-on or at various angles.
A "normal" FMJ - lead core surrounded by an actual jacket of copper, generally either breaks a bone or richocettes off of it and keeps traveling.
I would guess that the copper-washed scrap & lead bullets would break up upon impact with a bone. Whether they would also tend to break the bone or not - I don't know. I guess it could be thought of as frangible ammo in that sense, but how effective it is - I don't know. The effect would be somewhat random I would think because this isn't a design factor that they control for... it's just what happens when you mix scrap metal in with the lead to save on costs.
For instance, some ammo is made by mixing ground scrap metal with the lead, they use the scrap metal as filler.
Also, some ammo, instead of having a copper "jacket" merely have a very thin coating of copper on them, sometimes called a "copper wash"
These kinds of rounds are banned at the indoor ranges in my area because when they impact the strike plate at the range they disintegrate and the non-lead bits of various and assorted scrap metal kick up sparks.
I don't know how a round like this would act in a body, I don't think anyone has studied how these bullets act when they hit bone head-on or at various angles.
A "normal" FMJ - lead core surrounded by an actual jacket of copper, generally either breaks a bone or richocettes off of it and keeps traveling.
I would guess that the copper-washed scrap & lead bullets would break up upon impact with a bone. Whether they would also tend to break the bone or not - I don't know. I guess it could be thought of as frangible ammo in that sense, but how effective it is - I don't know. The effect would be somewhat random I would think because this isn't a design factor that they control for... it's just what happens when you mix scrap metal in with the lead to save on costs.
I definately wouldn't use L9MM3 for HD/SD
I wouldn't use FMJ for HD/SD anyway, but I got a box of Remington 115gr L9MM3 for around $11 and when I lined the rounds up on the countertop there were some short and some tall. It was obvious just by looking at them. So I started taking a caliper to them and there was a 1/32" difference between the tallest rounds and the shortest rounds.
That's too much variation. I should have taken the box back and gotten a refund.
I have a TEC-9M with a 36 rnd magazine. It only feeds FMJ and Federal Nyclads, If things got really bad - TEOTWAWKI I would have it with me along with other stuff, but I wouldn't try to feed the L9MM3 to it.
I wouldn't use FMJ for HD/SD anyway, but I got a box of Remington 115gr L9MM3 for around $11 and when I lined the rounds up on the countertop there were some short and some tall. It was obvious just by looking at them. So I started taking a caliper to them and there was a 1/32" difference between the tallest rounds and the shortest rounds.
That's too much variation. I should have taken the box back and gotten a refund.
I have a TEC-9M with a 36 rnd magazine. It only feeds FMJ and Federal Nyclads, If things got really bad - TEOTWAWKI I would have it with me along with other stuff, but I wouldn't try to feed the L9MM3 to it.
First, I don't use FMJ for SD, or much of anything else. But there are times I'm forced to buy FMJ ammo, whether I buy the cheap stuff or the high quality stuff depends on what I am going to do with the ammo.
I still play at Bullseye Pistol when I can find a match. Part of Bullseye is the EIC match where you build up points to get your distinguished pistol badge. The CMP EIC matches require the use of FMJ ammo (similar to what the military uses, since you're shooting service pistol). In this case I'm buying the best bullets I can find.
On the other hand, I carry per the LEOSA meaning I have to qualify once a year. The place I qualify (Clackamas County Sheriff's, Portland OR) uses an indoor range which requires you purchase their "environmentally clean" ammo, which is FMJ. They have ammo available varying in quality for you to choose.
The qualification course is really simple, at the ranges you're required to shoot, you can get real sloppy and still keep all the rounds in the A zone. I use the cheap stuff, no reason for the extra expense of high quality ammo when the worse of the worse will allow you to clean the course.
I still play at Bullseye Pistol when I can find a match. Part of Bullseye is the EIC match where you build up points to get your distinguished pistol badge. The CMP EIC matches require the use of FMJ ammo (similar to what the military uses, since you're shooting service pistol). In this case I'm buying the best bullets I can find.
On the other hand, I carry per the LEOSA meaning I have to qualify once a year. The place I qualify (Clackamas County Sheriff's, Portland OR) uses an indoor range which requires you purchase their "environmentally clean" ammo, which is FMJ. They have ammo available varying in quality for you to choose.
The qualification course is really simple, at the ranges you're required to shoot, you can get real sloppy and still keep all the rounds in the A zone. I use the cheap stuff, no reason for the extra expense of high quality ammo when the worse of the worse will allow you to clean the course.
What exactly is a "self defence FMJ round"?
Not "target rounds" no cheap ammo.
Not "target rounds" no cheap ammo.
So you want to pay a premium for the same round in a different box with the words "Self Defense Grade" on the box?
Not trying to be a 'smart alec', but I guess I am still not sure what you are asking...
9MM Hardball ammo has been around since 1902...
It must be doing something 'right'...
Adamantium
New member
There is Federal's Expanding FMJ rounds. Thats all I can think of for "premium" FMJ rounds.
Do you live in NJ? Thats the #1 reason I see people asking a question like this.
Do you live in NJ? Thats the #1 reason I see people asking a question like this.
Federal originally made their EFMJ in 124gr. If they still make it in that bullet weight - I can't find it.
What is available now is their "Gaurd Dog" EFMJ in 105gr.
The 105gr EFMJ performs like a 380 AUTO round.
I don't see a huge use for it, maybe if you wanted to down-load a 9mm derringer because of arthiritus or something (I don't know)
But generally speaking I wouldn't use Federal's Gaurd Dog 105gr EFMJs for self-defense. Not to eben mention that they are more expensive than regular FMJ. They're more expensive than Blazzer Brass and similar - and the regular FMJs are probably way more effective as an SD round.
Heck - the Wolf and Tula ammo may even be more effective than the 105gr Gaurd Dog...
What is available now is their "Gaurd Dog" EFMJ in 105gr.
The 105gr EFMJ performs like a 380 AUTO round.
I don't see a huge use for it, maybe if you wanted to down-load a 9mm derringer because of arthiritus or something (I don't know)
But generally speaking I wouldn't use Federal's Gaurd Dog 105gr EFMJs for self-defense. Not to eben mention that they are more expensive than regular FMJ. They're more expensive than Blazzer Brass and similar - and the regular FMJs are probably way more effective as an SD round.
Heck - the Wolf and Tula ammo may even be more effective than the 105gr Gaurd Dog...
Silent Bob
New member
In .45 ACP at least, I would and have relied on 230gr FMJ as self-defense ammunition, but I would prefer a JHP. Don't have a .44 Special and don't know if they make .44 Special FMJs, but I would be okay with that too if all I had was a revolver in that caliber and kind of ammo.
I carried S&B FMJ due to it having sealed primers.
I would not rely on FMJ in just about any other caliber, especially 9mm or .38 Special, unless I absolutely had no choice.
I carried S&B FMJ due to it having sealed primers.
I would not rely on FMJ in just about any other caliber, especially 9mm or .38 Special, unless I absolutely had no choice.
where are all the self defence FMJ rounds? Do they make them?
Well I suppose you could call any ammo "self defense" ammo. But but for the most part there's no such thing as fmj self defense ammo.
As Silent Bob mentions "they all fall to hard ball". In a large enough cartridge the hole left is large enough that an expanding bullet might not be needed.
FMJ rounds are excellent. They are my favorite and I also know the military uses them. I would love to know where to find them. Surf the web,which I am about to do, and I will hopefull find some.
Get out of here you one post troll!
What I mean is a more reliable round, like how the high grade ammo works, it goes bang almost everytime, less duds. FMJ "target rounds" $8~$14 a box have a higher dud rate due to poor quality.
For example, bulk packs of wwb 100 pack 9mm $22 or so for 9mm. Or $15 per box (2x) = $30 for a different brand(higher grade)
~550 rounds federal 22lr vs cci stinger $7 a box of 50.
Both are HP'S but cci is a higher grade.
This make sense?
I can buy for $20 550 rounds of federal 22lr rounds that are HP, or I could buy 50 rounds of cci stinger $7 a box, which is a higher grade, I would get less duds for the cci's but cost more. See?
For example, bulk packs of wwb 100 pack 9mm $22 or so for 9mm. Or $15 per box (2x) = $30 for a different brand(higher grade)
~550 rounds federal 22lr vs cci stinger $7 a box of 50.
Both are HP'S but cci is a higher grade.
This make sense?
I can buy for $20 550 rounds of federal 22lr rounds that are HP, or I could buy 50 rounds of cci stinger $7 a box, which is a higher grade, I would get less duds for the cci's but cost more. See?
sigcurious
New member
I could be wrong on this, but aside from OAL issues, the cheaper stuff seems to go bang just as often as the more expensive stuff. I only shoot S&B and commercial reloads for target rounds, as they are the cheapest I can find, and in the few thousand I've shot I've never had a dud and coincidentally never had out of spec rounds either, however I have seen quite a few pictures of WWB out of spec. It is interesting rather than use a centerfire example you go to rimfire, which is apples and oranges.
Adamantium
New member
The most common ammo related failure to fire is a bad primer. The major ammo makers don't have different reliability levels of primers that go into different grades of ammo.