Here's why so many people were killed in the Virginia Tech Shooting!

JohnKSa

Administrator
Did you know that just last year a bill to allow those with concealed permits to carry on college campuses in Virginia was shot down? The first article below has a quote from a Virginia Tech spokesman praising the defeat and saying that people on campus will now feel safe. Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus." One wonders how bitter those words taste today...

The second article and link are to an eerily prescient essay written by a VT graduate student with a concealed carry permit after an incident last year prompted the evacuation of the campus. Bradford Wiles writes: “I am trained and able to carry a concealed handgun almost anywhere in Virginia and other states that have reciprocity with Virginia, but cannot carry where I spend more time than anywhere else because, somehow, I become a threat to others when I cross from the town of Blacksburg onto Virginia Tech's campus."
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This incident makes it clear that it is time that Virginia Tech and the commonwealth of Virginia let me take responsibility for my safety.


Virginia Tech (Larry Hincker again) responded to Mr. Wiles’ essay. “Wiles tells us that he didn't feel safe with the hundreds of highly trained officers armed with high powered rifles encircling the building and protecting him.
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Guns don't belong in classrooms. They never will. Virginia Tech has a very sound policy preventing same.”
Where were these “hundreds of highly trained officers” during the 16 April 2007 massacre? Why didn’t VT’s “very sound policy” keep Cho Seung-Hui from bringing multiple firearms onto the campus? Why didn’t the policy prevent more than 50 students from being shot? Larry Hincker asks us to “Imagine if Students Were Armed”. It’s time we did more than “imagine.”

The next article and link describes how VT (who lobbied against the CCW bill that was killed) handled the security in the latest incident. They let the gunman roam the campus for over 2 hours after the initial shooting without effectively notifying anyone nor evacuating the campus. “Why were campus police so sure the threat was contained in one dormitory, when most of the killings occurred two hours later in a classroom building?”

It has been said that evacuating the campus in response to a shooting is over-reacting and impractical. Yet in August 2006, VT did just that. A link and excerpts from this article are included below. “...in response to reported sightings of William Morva, who is accused of shooting and killing a Montgomery County sheriff's deputy this morning and a Montgomery Regional Hospital security guard on Sunday, as well as injuring a sheriff's deputy Sunday. ... Access to Tech's campus has been largely shut down, with classes canceled and staff evacuated.”

VA Tech, in effect, stood up last year and said that they would be responsible for the security of their students--even went so far as to ridicule a carry permit holder for suggesting that they could not do so effectively. Now, a year later they allowed a gunman to roam freely on their campus for OVER TWO HOURS after the first shooting. During that time, they didn't try to evacuate the campus nor did they effectively notify the students on campus. Then they tried to justify their inaction by saying it’s too complicated and impractical to evacuate the campus in response to a shooting when the evidence shows they did so only months earlier.

This tragedy is a classic example of what happens when people are denied the right of self-defense and their safety is put in the hands of others.​

Articles and links below

www.roanoke.com/politics/wb/50658
Gun bill gets shot down by panel
HB 1572, which would have allowed handguns on college campuses, died in subcommittee.
By Greg Esposito

A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.
...
Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."
...
In June, Tech's governing board approved a violence prevention policy reiterating its ban on students or employees carrying guns and prohibiting visitors from bringing them into campus facilities.​

www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary/wb/80510
Unarmed and vulnerable

Bradford B. Wiles (Wiles, of New Castle, is a graduate student at Virginia Tech.)

On Aug. 21 at about 9:20 a.m. , my graduate-level class was evacuated from the Squires Student Center
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It was at this time that I realized that I had no viable means of protecting myself.

...I am licensed to carry a concealed handgun in the commonwealth of Virginia , and do so on a regular basis. However, because I am a Virginia Tech student, I am prohibited from carrying at school because of Virginia Tech's student policy, which makes possession of a handgun an expellable offense, but not a prosecutable crime.
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First, I never want to have my safety fully in the hands of anyone else, including the police.

Second, I considered bringing my gun with me to campus, but did not due to the obvious risk of losing my graduate career, which is ridiculous because had I been shot and killed, there would have been no graduate career for me anyway.

Third, and most important, I am trained and able to carry a concealed handgun almost anywhere in Virginia and other states that have reciprocity with Virginia, but cannot carry where I spend more time than anywhere else because, somehow, I become a threat to others when I cross from the town of Blacksburg onto Virginia Tech's campus.

Of all of the emotions and thoughts that were running through my head that morning, the most overwhelming one was of helplessness.
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I would also like to point out that when I mentioned to a professor that I would feel safer with my gun, this is what she said to me, "I would feel safer if you had your gun."
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This incident makes it clear that it is time that Virginia Tech and the commonwealth of Virginia let me take responsibility for my safety.

www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary/wb/81277
Imagine if students were armed
Larry Hincker (Hincker is associate vice president for university relations at Virginia Tech.)
After the fear, and dare I say, panic from the events of Aug. 21 (2006) , it is absolutely mind-boggling to see the opinions of Bradford Wiles ("Unarmed and vulnerable," Aug. 31).
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Wiles tells us that he didn't feel safe with the hundreds of highly trained officers armed with high powered rifles encircling the building and protecting him. He even implies that he needed his sidearm to protect himself against the officers.
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Who among us thinks the writer of the commentary would not have been directly in harm's way if he showed himself to those tactical squads while displaying a deadly weapon? Would he even be here today to tell us the story? Contrary to his position, the writer's commentary actually gives credence to the university policy preventing weapons in classrooms.
Guns don't belong in classrooms. They never will. Virginia Tech has a very sound policy preventing same.​

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18142745/
Questions raised about Virginia Tech security
Reporters, students, professors discuss if reaction could have been better


BLACKSBURG , Va. - On a university campus of 2,600 acres, with more than 26,000 students, ironclad security is not a practical goal. Even so, tough questions swiftly surfaced as to how effectively Virginia Tech authorities responded to Monday's horrific massacre.

Why were campus police so sure the threat was contained in one dormitory, when most of the killings occurred two hours later in a classroom building?

Why were they interviewing a “person of interest” off campus in regard to the first shootings at the very time the classroom killings were unfolding?


Why was there a lag of more than two hours after the first shootings before an alarm was e-mailed campuswide — around the time another, more deadly burst of carnage occurred? And more generally, some security experts wondered, was the school's crisis planning and emergency communications system up to the task?

Clearly, something went terribly wrong.
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Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum said there no surveillance cameras in place that recorded the gunman entering Norris Hall, the classroom building where 31 people were killed.
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Some students were upset that the gunman was able to strike a second time, saying the first notification they got of the shootings came in an e-mail at 9:26 a.m. ...​

www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/79080

“Police have spent the day racing to sometimes widely separated locations around Blacksburg in response to reported sightings of William Morva, who is accused of shooting and killing a Montgomery County sheriff's deputy this morning and a Montgomery Regional Hospital security guard on Sunday, as well as injuring a sheriff's deputy Sunday.
...
Access to Tech's campus has been largely shut down, with classes canceled and staff evacuated. A few students were still out earlier this afternoon near the dormitories on Washington Street .”​
 
Good post. I am in college as well and wish that I could carry on campus. I don't have a CCW. I can't easily get one for the state of Texas because I am an out of state student from Arizona. I'd have to get one from AZ to take advantage of reciprocity. This is easier said than done.

Meanwhile the same scenario played out today on VA Tech's campus is something I've worried about happening at my school. My best defense is quite literally a thick text book.

It is only--ONLY--people's irrational fear of a firearm that prevents people from using them for their rightful purpose.
 
Well said. I hope this incident opens peoples eyes and pushes for laws to allow concealed carry not only on Virginia Tech campus but in colleges and universities all over the USA.

I think a CCW permit with national reciprocity and laws allowing carry on university campuses is the answer. Many students go to schools not in their home state, and many states have permits that are difficult if not impossible for non-residents to obtain. Out of state students have every right to defend themselves as do students that are residents in that state; I really hope that this incident makes people realize that national reciprocity and right to carry at universities is necessary for the safety of the students. This incident is really huge, it makes me wonder if maybe a peaceful demonstration/march at DC or something rallying for the right to carry across the USA would be of effect.
 
the solution to this shooting will be more police on campus, strip searches and metal detectors
and of course a ban on "high capacity" magazines in Virginia
Great post JohnKSa
 
ABC is already putting out the hue and cry for more "gun control" , this according to O'Reilley this afternoon on TV. There will be more no doubt and the Kennedys, Schumers, Hillarys and all that ilk will play it as long as any of their types will nod yes.

A long hard battle for firearm owners from now until the 2008 elections. Be careful how you vote and for whom........
 
This is a sad day for US indeed. I'm very sad to hear what has happened in your nation. Im in Australia and the shooting has been on the News and TV and Radio ALL day. In this tragedy the anti-guns people have been rejoicing that they now have some ground to help the gun ban in US. Unbelievable- are these people born with the 0 logic and common sense.... a gun ban isnt going to stop a terrorist from saying "oh hey the gun laws say we cant have guns or take them into public places to shoot heaps of people because the law now states that". if the US government cant keep out border jumpers they're not going to keep out guns no matter how hard they try. Now they're talking of tightening guncontrol in Australia even more so! De-arming the US is only going to stop Honest people from obtaining guns is it not? Also guns or not... why didnt these people defend themself(or did they?) against "1?" gunman when there fellow classmates are getting slaughtered.
 
I'm struggling to write an observation, based on respect for the injuried and dead, from the witnesses interviewed after the shooting.

Perhaps, after every one has some time to heal from this, a valid discussion can surface on prevention and society as a whole. I'll save my observations until then.
 
Well the prohibition on weapons didn't help

And this set of guidleines didn't help

What to Do When Violence Occurs
• Try to stay calm. Raising your own voice may increase the anxiety of a potentially violent person.
• Speak slowly, softly, and clearly to reduce the momentum of the situation.
• Listen empathetically by really paying attention to what the person is saying. Let the person know that you will help them within your ability to do so or you will send for additional help.
• Do not agree using distorted statements or attempt to argue.
• Avoid defensive statements. This is not the time to place blame on the enraged person.
• Ask the belligerent person to leave the area and come back when they feel calmer.
• Ask questions to help regain control of the conversation.
• Ask uninvolved parties to leave the area if this can be done safely.
• Use the prearranged code word to alert your coworker(s) to call the Campus Police.
• Never challenge, try to bargain, or make promises you cannot keep.
• Describe the consequences of any violent behavior.
• Avoid challenging body language such as placing your hands on your hips, moving toward the person, or staring directly at them. If seated, remain in your chair and do not turn your back on the individual.
• Do not physically touch an outraged person, or try to force them to leave.
Move away from any object, such as scissors or heavy objects that could be used as a weapon.
• Calmly ask the person to place any weapons in a neutral location while you continue to talk to them.
• Never attempt to disarm or accept a weapon from the person in question. Weapon retrieval should only be done by a police officer.

I notice they left out

Stand quietly and hope the bad guy runs out of ammunition before it is your turn
 
In my 55 years I’ve read a lot of newspapers and watched a lot of news on TV, and I just have not seen many reports of incidents where private citizens packing handguns have defended themselves or prevented crimes. I’m sure those incidents do occur, but I’m equally sure they don’t occur in meaningful numbers.

This guy didn't look hard enough and apparently hasn't heard of The Armed Citizen in American hunter.
 
Obiwan, that list is interesting both sounding logical and being stupid. May I ask where it is from please?
Thank you
NukemJim
PS I like your addition as well NJ
 
Is it my imagination, or do these things seem to happen immediately after the anti-gunners win an election and gain control of the congress or White House???:confused: :confused:
 
I think it is irresponsible and reckless to analyze the cause/remedy of what happened yesterday. It takes time to gather the facts and figure out what needs to be changed. gun control is not the answer. Seems this fellow shouldn't have been allowed to have one any way.
 
More on the shooter from AP

"Professor Carolyn Rude, chairwoman of the university's English department, said she did not personally know the gunman. But she said she spoke with Lucinda Roy, the department's director of creative writing, who had Cho in one of her classes and described him as "troubled."

"There was some concern about him," Rude said. "Sometimes, in creative writing, people reveal things and you never know if it's creative or if they're describing things, if they're imagining things or just how real it might be. But we're all alert to not ignore things like this."

She said Cho was referred to the counseling service, but she said she did not know when, or what the outcome was. Rude refused to release any of his writings or his grades, citing privacy laws."
 
I think if you see the polls - you will see that by in large most are in favor of not changing any current firearm related laws. While it would be nice to re-do a vote on HR 1572 just to see if it might pass, ultimately, I don't think we'll see any new legiatation in this area *despite ABC/CBS/NBC/CNN making a stink over it*.

-.02cnts
 
Donovan655-

I'd have to get one from AZ to take advantage of reciprocity. This is easier said than done.

I'm an AZ CCW instructor. Next time your back in AZ and have a spare day, email me. I'll get you taken care of.
Denny
 
Gun Control - Virgina Tech

Haven't seen any press releases or comments from the NRA. Maybe they will come out in support of gun control?

Gun Owners of America have issued a statement:

Gun Owners of America , the only major no compromise 2nd Amendment group in America, issued a press release in which its President Larry Pratt stated,"All the school shootings that have ended abruptly in the last ten years were stopped because a law-abiding citizen -- a potential victim -- had a gun."

"The latest school shooting demands an immediate end to the gun-free zone law which leaves the nation's schools at the mercy of madmen. It is irresponsibly dangerous to tell citizens that they may not have guns at schools. The Virginia Tech shooting shows that killers have no concern about a gun ban when murder is in their hearts."
-----------

A bill in the Virginia legislature last year that would have allowed students with concealed weapons permits to carry their guns at schools was killed, with VA Tech spokesman Larry Hincker heralding the move as action that would "help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus." How hollow those words sound now in light of eyewitness reports of how victims had to cower under desks as the killer calmly approached, their only means of defense throwing chairs or risking their lives by escaping out of high-rise windows.

"Isn't it interesting that Utah and Oregon are the only two states that allows faculty to carry guns on campus. And isn't it interesting that you haven't read about any school or university shootings in Utah or Oregon? Why not? Because criminals don't like having their victims shoot back at them," Gun Owners of America's Larry Pratt said yesterday. "That's why the American people want an end to this ineffective gun ban."

Other interesting things:
Students of numerology will be all too aware of the connotations attached to the fact that there were 33 victims in all. The massacre occurred three days short of the anniversaries of Waco and Ruby Ridge and four days short of the 1999 Columbine shootings.

(Source: Gun Control Law Helped Campus Killer )
 
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