Here is something that worries me from time to time...

2transams said:
Walk away. Run away if you have to.

Obviously, this is the correct answer under ideal conditions. I think we all agree upon that, we're the good guys.

The crux of this debate is concerning a guy who won't take "no" for answer.

It is assumed here that we have tried to break off the attack, we have reasoned with him, tried to responsibily de-escalate the situation and now have run out of options.

In short, if we don't act, some one is going to be hurt. And by 'someone,' I mean me.

The guys here don't believe in the Rambo stuff. If you get knocked to the floor or have your teeth and jaw shattered, then you are going to spend weeks or months healing, or not working.

There is a point to where being a responsible citizen must end and survival is important.
 
If we were having this debate 30 years ago, I would have stated that, yes, there are some very petty, drunken miscreants out there. However, if they could just make it back to the double-wide, sober up and catch 'Oprah,' most will make it to rehab and forget the entire incident.

Are you kidding? 30 (OK add a few) years ago I was one of the drunken, tribal, posturing miscreants with the old guys wondering what the world was coming to... :)

WildjustapunkAlaska TM
 
Confrontation! You pull out your OC and the other person pulls out his 45 cal. whatever. You yell,"Kings-X". Apologize, I say, "apologize" and again apologize and ask the person to explain what it was that you did to upset him. Get that person to talking and the more he talks the more they will unwind. (Generally speaking.) If they are determined, back-off and apologize, back-off and get ready. As for a bouncer in a bar, I haven't got a clue. I don't frequent those places nor would I work in one. One more thing, I ride in an electric wheelchair.
 
AS a note ... in Colorado, at least, if you draw or even display or threaten with a weapon, it is the same as using a weapon. Most authorities I've heard say that as a civilian you should never draw or display your weapon unless you have legal cause to use it.

That said ... the police and prosecutors don't necessary enforce things to that level. They know they're not going to get an attempted murder charge to stick on someone because they drew a weapon and pointed it in the general direction of belligerant and threatening jerk but never fired.

But if you're somewhere like the People's republiks of Denver or Boulder ... I wouldn't take the chance.
 
this is an interesting topic to be debating. i was told by the commander who is in charge of training my city's police officers that you do not pull a gun unless you intend to use it and if you plan to use it, aim "for the triple X" (meaning the chest).

keeping that in mind, i would not pull my gun on someone unless i felt i was either going to be killed or raped or something like that or if someone broke into my house (obviously i'd call the cops if i were able to & simply hold them there until the cops show up). i've been in many confrontations with men & women alike. i'm pretty confident that i could handle myself in a fight & that attitude comes across & they usually back down (may not be the smartest thing to do but it's worked for me, maybe it's worked this way b/c i'm a girl, i don't know).
 
In Utah and in my understanding Every state, will "string you up" if you initially caused someone to attack you in anger! If I take someones parking space or cut them off in traffic and they decide to attack me in such a way that would justify deadly force, I will be in most cases the criminal in the scenario! Apology or "cowardice" as some may call it is a good option here. If you in ANY way caused someones anger, it is your Burden to De-escalate the situation in whatever way possible! It sounds to me that many would "stand their ground" and use deadly force! Just think of how impressed your spouse would be if you were a "big Man"! She could still visit you and talk to you thru the little glass window on the phone!
Threegun and Night watchman have the best advice here in my opinion!
 
i'm not sure how the law in my state views a situation like that. what i do know is that if someone is on your property presenting a threat to your life, you can defend yourself. even if you start a fight, physical or otherwise, on your property, the law in my state still favors you.
 
Silentarmy: If I take someones parking space or cut them off in traffic and they decide to attack me in such a way that would justify deadly force, I will be in most cases the criminal in the scenario

I am not an attorney, but I think your statement is false, in any state. The trespass and the reaction have to be proportional.

If I take a guy's parking space, and he gets out of his car with a boowie knife and says he's gonna cut me into little pieces, his reaction is not proportional to my original encroachment against him.

No law would stop me from perforating him, if he would not back down.
 
Brave Sir Robin had it right in ' The Holy grail'


RUN AWAY!!!!


Seriously, apologize like crazy, retreat and apologize some more. If they persist then loudly apologize so everyone in the county can hear you and tell them that you feel threatened and ask them to stop threatening you, apologize some more and run away screaming like a little girl.


Only if, and I mean a big IF, they still persist then you should react with force equal to what they are bringing to you.

Having to shoot someone over a parking space or looking at their woman is not a path that you really want to go down, whether it is legal/ justified or not.

I am not saying that you shouldn't protect yourself if the threat to your life is real and clear, but do everything you can to avoid having it get to that point in the first place.
 
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+1 to mikejonestkd!

This is something that most of us "macho men" don't like to talk about. Most of us would rather eat a booger than to appologize to someone or run away from a fight. But, when you conceal carry, the ability to remain the calmest and most cheerful person in the room, I dare say, the "eye of the hurricane," is an essential skill.

Learn to appologize, and most importantly, learn to sound like you mean it! If you appologize to someone and you sound like you truly are sorry, then they'll go away. (They may hiss some choice words at you, but the truth is, almost every single sincere appology offered in this world is, eventually, accepted.) But, if you're gruff, sarcastic, or non-chalant about it, then you've just picked a fight!

When I carry, I'm the most easy-going, fun-loving, cheerful guy in the world! I do this for two reasons: First, because I don't want to stir others up, and second, because I don't want to stir myself up.

Also, if you mess up your "sincere" appology, be able to run like the dickens! There's no shame in running away from a man in order to avoid killing him. That's about the kindest thing you can do for someone.
 
In Utah and in my understanding Every state, will "string you up" if you initially caused someone to attack you in anger!
Not true! I can't think of a state off the top of my head that is like that. But, know your state's laws.
 
First off,
Only if, and I mean a big IF, they still persist then you should react with force equal to what they are bringing to you.
Ah... no. If someone is threatening me with his fists, I'm using OC or other "non-lethal" long-reach tool (baton, 9-iron, ball bat) defensively. If he pulls a knife, he sees my gun. He pulls a gun, he sees my gun and the rapid flashes...

Next, in addition to the escalation of force there is a thing called disparity of force which can be used both ways.

If you are a 5'2" 108 pound woman and a 5'10" 200 pound man is threatening harm, police and prosecutors are more likely to look at it as self-defense because the smaller person is unlikely to put on an effective defense without a weapon.

Likewise if you are 6'2" and 195 lbs facing the same attacker, the incident will be given closer scrutiny to see if the use of a weapon was justifiable.

Age, stature, physical condition, medical issues can all play into it. Obviously someone in an electric wheelchair cannot flee as easily or fight as effectively. Nor can a 70-ish man fight a 20-something parolee. The law is supposed to take this into account when determining if lethal force is justified.

If you offend someone by taking a parking space, driving too slow/fast, eyeballing their girlfriend, or whatever, that is insufficient reason for them to threaten you with a beating. They can call you a G-D F'ing moron with a case of recto-crainial insertion who isn't smart enough to pour pee out of a boot - because it's not threatening (insulting, yes, but not threatening). But saying "I'm gonna kick yer butt" or coming at you with any kind of weapon makes them the criminal aggressor.
 
BillCA said:
Likewise if you are 6'2" and 195 lbs facing the same attacker, the incident will be given closer scrutiny to see if the use of a weapon was justifiable.

A painful truth.

My gripe is that I have the same need for safety and security that a smaller woman does.

If I am repeatedly attacked by a 125 pound banger, why shouldn't I be allowed to use my superior strength and implements to guaranty my safety?

And we all know the reasons why I will be arrested. Read any Ayoob article in his "Win In Court" articles and you know how expensive and invasive your legal defense is going to be.

Let me give you one small example. I carry an Emerson CQC7 HD-7 for the same reason thousands of afficionados do. It's well made out of superior materials. Go examine one. But we all know how opposing counsel will refer to this knife...

"...a killing implement designed for Navy SEALs..."

I believe that when a citizen is cleared of wrongdoing by a criminal court there should not be a civil trial as in the case of OJ Simpson. And if he must endure that action, he should not be subjected to the cost in securing his freedom and financial security. If you ry to bankrupt a man to punish him, and you lose, you pay for everything--including his PTSD therapy. Maybe that will stem the tide of groundless law suits.

I believe these civil trials to be an unfounded kangaroo court subjecting the innocent to "two bites of the apple."
 
Next, in addition to the escalation of force there is a thing called disparity of force which can be used both ways.
Depends on the state. There is not necessarily the need to respond in kind. In AZ, if you are in fear of death or serious bodily injury, you are justified in using lethal force. Regardless of whether the assailant is armed or not. Some of the factors you mention will be taken into account, but the law does not require you to let someone who is smaller than you beat you to death nor does it allow you to kill someone's 6 year old who kicks you in the nuts.

I believe that when a citizen is cleared of wrongdoing by a criminal court there should not be a civil trial
Many states are like that. If you are not criminally charged (your shooting is justified), you are shielded from civil suit by the assailant or their survivors.
 
:) All right! I wasn't going to post this; but, apparently, some people really do need to hear it: I'm 64; I couldn't run if I wanted to; I really do have a serious heart condition; and, I am what remains of a once superlative gunman.

(But, like my wife says: Better a, 'has been' than a, 'never was'!) :D

A couple of months ago, late at night, I was walking down a dirt road across from my house. The 1/2 moon had just started to rise and, as yet, it was very dark. I could just about see where I was going when, suddenly, a vehicle pulled in off the main road and drove down the lane toward our farm dumpster. I thought this was odd; and, because I didn't recognize the vehicle, I stopped to watch.

A man of average height wearing a hooded sweatshirt and baggy pants got out. His loose clothing was out-of-place for our neighborhood and lent a certain air of mystery. He moved quickly and immediately began to unload a number of large black plastic bags and several gray 10 gallon plastic pails off the back of his completely stuffed SUV. I remember thinking to myself that it was odd to see large plastic pails with the lids on – Most people simply throw these lids away; but, for some reason, this guy had kept them.

He parked with the vehicle pointing back out toward the main road, and had left his headlights on – shining down the lane. I guessed he was up to, ‘no good’ and intended to be on the property for the shortest possible amount of time. Several people have permission to use this dumpster; but, something about this guy, the time of night, or whatever, made me suspicious; so I started across the field to ask him who he was and, hopefully, to send him on his way to someone else’s place.

The guy turned out to be very alert! He spotted me walking up to him while I was, still, about 20 yards away. I didn’t recognize him as one of my neighbors; and, in a more or less polite tone of voice, I asked him what he was doing? He replied; ‘Getting rid of my garbage!’ I simply told him: 'Not here!' 'Pick it up and put it back in the vehicle.' He spoke to me in a deep guttural sort of voice that had, ‘city’ written all over it and gave me a surly; 'What for?' Then I saw that infamous, ‘quick look around’ as his shoulders suddenly stiffened. Instantly, I recognized what was about to happen! :eek:

He reached underneath his sweatshirt with both hands; and, with his head lowered and his elbows slightly out to the sides, he started to rush me! It was dark; the only light we had was from the reflected glow of his headlights. He was much younger than me, healthier too; and, I knew I couldn’t afford to be either, ‘nice’ or wait for him to finally close in. As he came at me I quickly drew my pistol, and snapped the slide on a loaded chamber. (I carry in C-3 and use an Israeli draw.)

He was about 10-12 feet away when I began to draw. Strangely, this guy came to a sudden stop and actually froze in mid-stride. (More than anything else, it must have been my flashing brilliant green night sights that tipped him off!) So there we stood, staring at each other across 10 feet of dark road! Him, with his hands still underneath the hem of his sweatshirt and with most of his facial features obscured by that large hood, and me with a Glock 21 at extended retention. I couldn’t really see his face; but, I swear I could, ‘feel’ him looking back at me from underneath that hood!

In a quiet voice I told him; ‘This isn’t going to go your way!’ He thought for a moment before asking me; 'What do you want me to do?' His body language changed; he no longer seemed interested in quickly closing in on me; and, I noticed he had a very clear, deep, and, ‘authoritarian’ sort of tone to his voice. This guy was nobody’s flunky; he was, unquestionably, used to giving orders!

While he picked up on the fact he was making me nervous, this didn’t stop him from continuing to keep his hands underneath his sweatshirt. I strongly suspected he was holding either a pistol, or a knife; but, I’d just beaten him at his own game; and, he hadn’t made up his mind, yet, about whether or not a pile of garbage was worth fighting over? The guy never flinched! He was tough, too. Tougher than anything I expected to find in the side pasture! He continued to face me, indecisive and a little hesitant, but clearly not afraid, and not yet persuaded that he should give in.

It was him, a woman who had ducked down inside the vehicle as I approached; and me: The three of us, alone, there in the dark. As the moments passed I could feel him, 'reading me' as if I were a book. He fully recognized that I was on a very short fuse, better prepared for trouble than he’d expected, and much faster with a gun than he'd expected, too. He, also, realized that I was a lot older than him, and in nowhere near as good physical condition. (I walk with a decided limp.)

I was able to read him, too! He was in his late 20’s or early 30’s and quite physically fit – almost too much so! He demonstrated a lot of street savvy, and more than his fair share of self-confidence. He was mad! He didn’t like being caught; and, unless he absolutely had to, he wasn’t going to take any crap from an, ‘old white boy’ like me. This man reeked of, both, arrogance and street pride! Not once while we faced each other did he stop gauging me – My pistol didn’t seem to matter to him; he just kept looking for an opportunity to get past it!

As the moments passed I began to feel like he had the advantage; I could feel my years; I was annoyed with myself for growing old; and, it bothered me that this guy didn’t seem to be the slightest bit afraid of me. Other men, at other times, had been afraid of me; but, that was yesterday; and, this was here and now. To my surprise, I began to feel, ‘embarrassed’ and, somehow, inadequate. What had started out as a quiet walk through the fields suddenly ended up costing me a lot of my self-image and some of my self-esteem. :(

Even though he knew he was making me nervous, he insisted on keeping his hands well hidden. It was strange, almost surrealistic, standing there facing him down. Without saying a single threatening word there he was – refusing to cooperate and openly daring me to make the first mistake! Little by little, my embarrassment began to turn to anger; and, I repeated the demand for him to pick up his garbage.

Something in my voice must have warned him because after I spoke, again, I could see him begin to relax. No, he wasn’t getting comfortable; instead, through his body language, he was telling me that he had finally made up his mind and intended to comply! After thinking about it, I believe he thought that making a last stand over a pile of stinking rubbish was a really bad idea for the both of us. He finally took his hands away from the front of his waistline, and said; ‘OK!’ Then he began to pick up his bags and pails, and (I suspect) thought about rushing me one more time before he closed the hatch door and moved to the front of his vehicle.

I moved forward with him; and, as he got in, I told him I would take his license plate, and immediately call the police to report the incident. (You never know; but, because I had to pull a gun, I fully intended to be the first one to call the police!) He didn’t say anything. He just got into the vehicle; the woman began to speak; but, he motioned her to be quiet, and closed the driver’s door. As he released the parking brake I stepped behind the SUV and took the license plate information. When I got back to the house I called the police, told them what had happened, and gave them a description of the vehicle and the people inside.

Within the hour, the police called back and told me the plate had expired and actually belonged on another auto. The officer said an area watch had been issued for the vehicle and patrol officers were presently out looking for it. It appears this garbage drop had been carefully planned: a phony license plate, a hooded sweatshirt, a weapon, and a very large quantity of garbage that gave off a foul chemical odor. :barf:

As unhappy as I am about running into this slick, city, ‘gangsta’ I'm delighted he wasn’t able to leave whatever toxic crap he had to get rid of, anywhere, near my home! I tend to look for a meaning in things; but, I honestly don’t know what the moral of this story could be? Maybe that I’m definitely not as young as I used to be; and, this episode has certainly pointed that out to me; or, maybe, depending upon how you view things, I just happened to be in the right place at the wrong time?

Like I said, I don’t know; but, I’m very glad I didn’t have to use my pistol. A lot of things about being me aren’t what they used to be; but, my Sicilian temper and hand/eye coordination remain intact. That city boy definitely made the right decision for himself – Even if he had a pistol underneath that sweatshirt he wouldn’t have made it; and, regardless of how tired or old he made me feel, I wouldn’t have missed.

So, talk all you want about: apologizing, retreating, running away, or pepper spray. The simple fact is that, on this night, none of those things would have done me the slightest bit of good. The simple truth is that it takes two to make a fight; and, if the other guy insists, then, it's going to happen.

Sometimes all you can do is hold your ground to wait and see! ;)
 
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Bravo !! Good well done ! (It was your job, night I add, not a LEO)

Many years of preparation paid off ! You handled like a real man.

Good for you he chose wisely.

Imagine how many people would not have been prepared, or too mentally weak to handle the situation.

Bravo !
 
Yell for someone to call 911...you are being assaulted. That lays the groundwork that you are trying to defuse the situation.911 will ask that the caller remain on the line until the police arrive and the whole event is being recorded.Continue to retreat until that is no longer an option.At that point you are out of options and can draw your weapon to defend yourself.It will aid your cause if the assailant says things like "I'll kill you" or I'll mess you up". You only need to be in fear for your safety to defend yourself.You will notice I did not say to shoot.Sometimes the sight of a weapon will defuse the situation.Sometimes the sight of a red laser dot on his shirt may be enough.You never know, but at this point in time it's getting tough for the bad guy.
 
Great topic

This topic creates a few viewpoints. An older or disabled gentlemen, a woman, anyone who a jury, police officer or other authority could sympathize with may indeed have an advantage in the aftermath of a defensive shooting.

Now take this hypothetical CCWer in this hypothetical situation: Mid-twenties, excellent physical strength and conditioning, extensive martial-arts background. A drunk, drugged or simply irrational person confronts him in a gas station parking lot when he denies him change. He wants to tussle.

Some would say run, now suppose he is between the CCWer and his vehicle. Run into the darkness beyond the gas station pumps? Run into the store? What if it's a window-only? What if he's dragging along a child? It's a very sticky situation. He can't just shoot this guy, but he doesn't want to fight him. He's got a pistol riding in an Uncle Mike's IWB... not exactly a high-retention holster.

It gets very hinky. He brandishes, the crackhead charges... bang bang... the prosecuter says "Why didn't you utilize your martial arts training?"

btw

Thanks for sharing Night Watchman. That is an intense story. No disrespect, but if this character is as tough as you surmise him to be... he might have done you a huge favor by deciding it wasn't worth it. You may have been about to get into a gunfight with a stone-cold killer. Your description of him is eerie and I probably would have been standing there wishing I had a do-over once I realized the kind of person I was up against.

It makes you realize that pulling out your gun isn't like using a magic wand. It won't just make trouble disappear. I am sure your sigh of relief was a heavy one.
 
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