Here is something that worries me from time to time...

R

rampage841512

New member
Every one of us has done something to anger someone in our goings about in daily life. It happens. You bump into someone, you take the parking spot they wanted, you smile at their girlfriend, whatever. Sometimes these people give you a dirty look, say some words, or just walk away. What happens when they don't. What happens when a person, who to the best of your knowledge has no weapon what so ever and doesn't appear to present a deadly threat to you, wants a fight and won't back down. As the armed individual (though they don't know this) what do you do to counter this situation without it escalating to the point of someone getting seriously injured or killed.

Personally, I keep my cell phone on me at all times. There are few people who won't walk away when you are on the phone with the local LE. However, there are people who just don't care about that either, or who may want to get physical because you are calling in the cavalry. For this reason, I also try to keep pepper spray on me at all times when I'm out and about. This keeps me from having to bring the gun into play when the situation doesn't appear life threatening.

Thoughts, opinions?
 
If they are unarmed, there is little to do but try to walk away. If they pursue, then they have chosen to escalate the situation, and you can take whatever action you feel is appropriate. Are you justified in drawing your weapon? No, but placing your hand on it might send the signal to them that you are not going to be harmed because they choose to act inappropriately.
Stay as calm as you can, walk away, backwards if you can to keep an eye on them. Be confident, but not aggressive. Do whatever you need to make certain that any witnesses can positively say you did not aggravate the situation.
 
good issue! this too has been a concern of mine since I began to carry. The scene in my head is a person smaller than me, fro what ever reason, wants to get physical. Maybe they are drunk or whatever, heres the delemma I find, the person like you said is not ay present a danger to your life (even if fistacuffs begin) BUT you are carrying and if some strange turn of events gives the agressor a chance at grabbing your piece then you are in a life and death situation and BG now has your gun. I am fairly sure of my physical abilities but once i engage in a confrontation there is a chance BG will get my piece. Definitely a good piont to bring up, I too would like to hear some feedback.
 
Simple. Yes, carry something nonlethal as well.

If someone just seems to want to get into a shoving match or to take a swing at you, it's still assault. A shot of Fox Labs OC in their face will take the fight out of them in a hurry, and you can call the police and press charges while they're staggering around.

ALWAYS call, or they will and will say you attacked them instead.

Fox OC is good, plus there's that new two-shot slim thing that Kimber put their name on.
 
It's one of those things that a lot of people don't want to consider when they initially start carrying.

You'd better have some decent empty hand techniques, you'd better be physically strong and you'd better be able to retain your pistol if you're unlucky enough to be in the situation you describe. Otherwise you're probably going to be forced to shoot.

I've been forced into an unavoidable physical confrontation twice in the years since I started carrying. I was lucky enough to keep the gun covered through both.

I don't have an answer to what I'm going to do as I age, but as things stand, I'll only draw my weapon if dealing with an armed threat. It's my rule and I'm comfortable with it. YMMV.
 
Apologize, retreat, and then defend. Even if you aren't wrong apologize. Keep distance between you and the bad guy. Defend yourself if needed.

Do everything in your power to defuse the situation. Pepper spray is a great option. I am seriously considering the kimber Life Act unit.
 
:confused: Well, I know it's a very tough thing to have to force yourself to do; but, has anyone ever thought about feigning cowardice?

Nobody likes to beat up a coward! ;)

Acceptable excuses include: Please don't hurt me! I don't want to fight. I'm not even a man, honest! I'm old; I'm crippled; I have a serious heart condition. I'm a hemophiliac; I might bleed to death! Please, Sir, there's no glory in beating up a pathetic weakling like me!








(And, if you don't believe me, I swear I'll kill you!) :eek:
 
It's called escalation of force or, if you want to sound like a modern day Ninja-warrior instructor it becomes the force continuum.

Cops carry guns, but also chemical sprays, a baton and possibly a taser or stun gun. This gives them different levels of force to use where and when appropriate.

Some well prepared citizens with CCWs also carry pepper spray and some kind of knife to give them options to pulling a gun out of its holster.

But the best weapon you can use, by far and away, is your Mark-I Organic Computer. If someone is mad over something you've done (or they think you've done) the easiest and most "disarming" thing you can do is apologize for offending them. About 60% will make some angry comments afterwards and storm off. Probably 30% will calm down and tell you how irritating it was. The other 10% are unpredictable.

You attempt to defuse the anger by giving them nothing to "fight against" because you apologized for the offense. If they complain you're the arrogant offspring of an illegitimate marriage just roll with it with a response like "Well, maybe, but it was thoughtless of me to take your parking place." or something similar.

Drunks and bullies are another matter. They may want the fight for their own selfish reasons. This is where the pepper spray comes in. You try the apology tactic, try to defuse further insults and anger, slowly put some distance between you. When he moves towards you (in a rude, angry or threatening manner), you shout "Stay away from me!" before you baptize him with eau de Habenero.
 
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Not to rehash old threads, but OC is not that effective. Watch the military and police tests on you tube.

What happens when a person, who to the best of your knowledge has no weapon what so ever and doesn't appear to present a deadly threat to you, wants a fight and won't back down
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Know your state's laws. In most cases, this would constitute a deadly threat. If you have attempted to retreat and cannot, warned the person that you are armed and in fear for your life, called 911 (if possible) and they persist in the attack, you would be justified in many (if not most) states. Most states do not require your attacker to be armed. What they require is that YOU be in fear of death or serious bodily injury. In most states, escalation of force does not apply to civilians (although it does in a couple). The law does not require you to take a couple of punches just because you are armed and the other guy is not. Anyone who would fight with you knowing that you are armed has escalated the confrontation to a lethal one.

In reality, most of the time there is a way to avoid the confrontation (always the best policy). Lock yourself in your car and call 911 or drive away. Jump on a bus, in a cab, go into a restaurant or run like hell.
 
Get and read a copy of "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massayd Ayoob. This should be required reading for CHL/CCW applicants.
 
BillCA has a real good handle on this situation.

My $.02??? It's really simple, . . . I'm an old geezer and have long outlived my usefullness as a hand to hand combatant (walker to walker I might do :D) and I have made my peace with Bill's advice:

"If someone is mad over something you've done (or they think you've done) the easiest and most "disarming" thing you can do is apologize for offending them. About 60% will make some angry comments afterwards and storm off. Probably 30% will calm down and tell you how irritating it was. The other 15% are unpredictable.

You attempt to defuse the anger by giving them nothing to "fight against" because you apologized for the offense."

If the apology does not do the trick, . . . I have no compunction at all in bringing my gun into play. If the person is young, big, strong, & fast enough to be a serious threat to my well being, . . . and if he pushes the confrontation with threats, . . . I don't have any choice, . . . and I won't hesitate. That is when he will get a few seconds to make up his mind if he really does want to go to a gunfight unarmed.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
Good topic to discuss!

I work night jobs doing bouncing at a bar, and security for sports events. I have done pissed off a LOT of people by doing my job. Many many times have I been delivered threats. Last Friday was the most recent. I refused to let back into the bar a very drunk male, about my height, weighed less than me (lots of people weigh less than me though), and boy was he upset. He kept trying to come in and would refuse to move. I was far more patient with him than I could have been, but he did wind up on his rear end at least once as i gave him the ol push out the door frame. That made him bring up the threats, I had to follow him outside to get him to repeat it, He said he was going to dropkick me every time he sees me, I wanted to make sure he was saying 'dropkick' and not 'drop', that the usual threat given by wannabe-gangbangers. But he didnt seem to be talking about wanting to threaten my life, he just wanted to hurt me.
The last time I had to lay hands on him, i armbarred him into the wall and made sure my point was made clear. He kept on jabbering on and on and I told him not to wait, he sees me right now, do what he thinks he can right here.
He'll probably never remember again, he was that intoxicated, but there are countless others that were not intoxicated when I kicked them out, who would do something cowardly like attack me from behind, or even try to get off a few shots.

Thats why I never park near the bar, and we always walk out the bar after we are done with backup, and we do pay attention to any vehicles nearby or anyone who might be watching for us coming out.

Saturday we had a couple of known coke dealers we were getting out, when one went to use his botle as a weapon we took them down quickly. They threatened to come back with guns that night.
Most of all that is just posturing, trying to show who has the biggest male organs, and trying to save face. One major difference is that working in a bar, you cannot back down from those threats. Once you are seen caving in, your armor has a chink in it, and others will know where the weak spots are.

In personal life, as noted earlier, the armed individual has to back off, take insults, talk their way out if possible. Not get riled up because they insult you or your parents or your way of life.

I have had to do this several times. It doesnt feel right at the time, but being able to walk away unscathed is all that matters. We lose the luxury of defending our honor when we put a deadly weapon on our person. All we can defend is our life or that of someone elses.

Pepper spray is not always effective, but it can buy you valuable time to create distance between you and the threat. Buy the right kind, however. Sabre Red is what we use at the bar, its for outdoor use, indoors it will require complete evacuation until it is no longe rin the air. It goes EVERYWHERE quickly and can incapacitate the user if they are not careful. We deployed it twice Friday night, first was to break up a fight between two women, I got the one in the mouth with the first blast, and followed up with a blast to her eyes/nose. It was perfect! :D
The second was to disperse a larger fight that was trying to break out, one of my fellow bouncers sprayed upwards instead of at individuals, and it cleared everyone out. And got four of us in the eyes as well.
I have yet to see anyone not get incapacitated by Sabre Red products. the other stuff, yeah, its not stellar in its effectiveness at all.
 
My take on this ...

Colorado has excellent self defense laws, though only "castle doctrine" when you're actually in your castle.

The last couple of years I've talked with a lot of different people about this and also had the opportunity to talk with a lawyer. My philosophy ...

The victim determines whether it's self defense or not. Although I'm not a streetfighter by any means, I'm a big guy and young enough to use my fists (at least in a jury's POV). So for me ... if a 150 pound "average male" attacks me without a weapon, I think it's best I keep my own weapon concealed until the situation becomes clearly life threatening.

I realize this isn't tactically the smartest thing, as who knows which blow to the head will kill or seriously damage me, and will I be able to get a weapon out when needed, but it's probably the best balance between self defense and the risk of ending up in the state Penitentiary. I'm guessing it's better to take a beating and get hospitalized than do hard time.

For the older gentlemen who posted above, however, that same 150 "average male" might be easily considered a deadly threat. He certainly would be for any woman, especially since in Colorado she can claim she believed he was sexually assaulting her and lethal force is immediately considered acceptable.

I have no problem backing down from a fight myself, but sometimes you get no options.

Having had some opportunities to be around prisons, though thankfully never lived in one, I will generally err on the side of NOT using deadly force.
 
Lurper, a good formulation of OC can be very effective.

Some brands are weak irritants, yes. But Fox Labs...the last time someone around here used it, and the brand name was reported, it was a lady who sprayed an attacker in the face with it. The police found him a block away, pushing his face in the snow and screaming.

People who have been hit with Fox say it feels like you just stuck your face in boiling french fry oil.
 
I hate to say this, but in discussions like this I must admit I've lost faith in my fellow man.

If we were having this debate 30 years ago, I would have stated that, yes, there are some very petty, drunken miscreants out there. However, if they could just make it back to the double-wide, sober up and catch 'Oprah,' most will make it to rehab and forget the entire incident.

I am now seeing more cruelty, posturing, turf comedies and tribal attitudes than ever before. Part of me is saddened. Part of me is disgusted.

Give you an example. I have a little white dog, one of the best parts of my life. I live on a large suburban block, and if the mutt can make it all the way around once, it's been a good day.

If I go, I go armed.

The problem is that many seemingly intelligent, white collar, suburban upscale folks cannot curb their dogs, their kids or their cars. We had one nut that let his pit-bull run free all day while he was at work.

I literally cannot figure out just what people are thinking. Guys I ride with say that it's all our fault. They blame too much cheap tequila, LSD and indiscriminate sex of the 1960's. They opine that these inbreds are our idiot b*stard children come to haunt us.

If I am faced with a guy who seemingly won't back down, I size him up, figure out where the soft spots might be, and devise a quick plan to kill him.

Obviously, this has never happened, and at my age, I hope it never does.

But I can no longer count on his sanity, his control, his empathy for my safety and health or his fear for arrest and conviction.

We used to have a road here now called 'The Old Beltline.' It had a tight bend in the southern part of the stretch, and there was a small filling station named "The Curve Truck Stop." It was robbed one night, and when the police got there, they found both hold-up men dead in the parking lot.

It seems they got into an argument on who would "get the privilege" to go back and kill the owner.

In the heat of the moment, they shot and killed each other.

At that time, it shocked all of us. Many joked about how this classified for "The Darwin Award." In all seriousness, things like this ushered in a new age of inhumanity to man.

My job is now to protect my wife, save my life and make it home. I don't feel any dramatic need to discern the drunken attitudes or wanton desires of any person who embraces violence as "fun Friday night entertainment."

If you follow the local news in my area, you'll find more and more citizens chasing or assaulting would-be felons. When the wimpy denizens of The Peoples' Republik of Madison start to fight back, you know the pendulum has begun to shift...
 
This concerns me because I'm 64 and can't be expected to mix it up physically with a 20 year old. People get beaten to death, and I'm annoyed that I can't at least draw my gun to discourage an attacker. Now, if I were a woman, the police would probably look more kindly on using a gun in this kind of situation. I'm waiting for castle doctrine to be national.
 
. . . and I'm annoyed that I can't at least draw my gun to discourage an attacker.
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Check your state laws. Drawing your weapon when you are in fear for your life is justifiable. Logically, if it wasn't that would mean that you would have to fire your weapon whenever you drew it. More times than not, the presence of a firearm (displayed or not) defuses the situation. At your age, faced with an assailant one third your years, unless you live in a people's republik you probably won't get in trouble.
 
I'm with Lurper.

I don't carry non lethal, nor do I intend to.

If i feel I have the perp easy, I might put him on his butt if the situation is totally unavoidable.

If I feel outmatched, and I have done everything to de-escalate, the steel will come out. The next move is up to him.

No one has to 'take' a punch, and Indiana law is very supportive.
 
Walk away. Run away if you have to. Your job is to stay safe and uninjured. Some of us feel it's our duty as good citizens to protect other people as well,including belligerent jerks. So if you can deescalate the situation by simply leaving then you've won. Nobody goes to the morgue,hospital,police station,or courthouse. Win-win all around,and you'll probably never see the guy again anyway.

Best way to survive a fight(gun- or otherwise)? Don't get in one. That's an original quote,by the way. I just made it up;).
 
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