Help the Border Patrol agents imprisoned

I appreciate the additional information provided by Rich. I e-mailed a link to a local radio station that's really jumped on the "pardon the border agents" bandwagon, just asking that they be aware of the "other side of the story."\

Playboypenquin: Unless you were in court or have access to the transcript, then you haven't seen any evidence at all. Surely, you don't think that news accounts are the same as evidence?
 
They were convicted through due process and by a jury of their peers.

They are guilty.

Let them file an appeal through the same means everyone else does... they are fools to expect a presidential pardon or a border patrol get out of jail free card. Maybe everyone should just help pay for better lawyers or something... protesting isn't going to get them any preferential treatment.. they already lost their shot at that once they lied and picked up evidence... and got caught... lol
 
What these Agents did was ridiculous and they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I think the fact that the illegal was hauling a load of dope is irrelivant in this case. He had already surrendered and was shot. And then the Agents tried to cover up there actions. If they were in fact assaulted by the guy and/or he had a weapon, I don't think they would have been so quick to cover it up. They would have no reason to cover it up because it would have been a legal shoot. They knew what they did from the begining was wrong. I think the best evidence against these guys is there own fellow BP Agents that were at the same scene testified against them. I've been in Law Enforcement in Texas as a State Trooper for quite awhile now. When I first heard some bits and pieces of the story, it pissed me off that these Agents were sent to prison. But after hearing the other side of the story, these Agents severly violated the law and got what they had coming to them. In LE, your going to make mistakes, but when you do something like this intentionally, I believe you should be made an example of too others. LE officers are held to a higher standard and rightfully should be. I work in South Texas which is a major couridor for illegal drugs and illegal immigrants. I routinely take down large amounts of narcotics and currency, as well as illegal immigrants. I've had quite a few of these try to flee from me. Especially the illegal immigrants. But it has never even crossed my mind to shoot at them 15 times when the flee. Especially after they already stopped. If this guy is a doper, he going to get caught. If not this time, next time. You can't break the law to enforce the law. And if you do, you should be prosecuted just like everyone else would have been. What really makes me mad, is these guys make all LE officers look bad to the public. There is such a small percentage of bad officers out there and when they do something like this, this makes all officers look bad.
 
I could understand the agents getting a demotion or suspension -- they're not above the law -- but not this kind of prison sentence. Totally ridiculous. The word of a worthless drug smuggler taken over U.S. Border Agents. A sad day indeed -- and that useless piece of garbage smuggler will probably win his $5 million dollar lawsuit and taxpayers will foot the bill.

Sign the petition and ask the Prez to pardon them!
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Time to kick over the apple cart once again.....

I am 1000% against illegal immigration.

I am foursquare behind closing and sealing our borders. If I could do it, I would deploy at least two complete Infantry Divisions along our southern border, with instructions to detain everyone trying to sneak across the border--with the ultimate goal to send them back home.

I believe in draconian penalties for ANY employer knowingly employing illegal immigrants. Severe fines and closing of businesses, and seizure of assets. If there are no jobs available, they won't come over.

I am especially in favor of the swift prosecution of anyone caught committing crime on American soil.

And, heaven forbid, should someone fire a shot toward our border, we should immediately respond with crushing and overwhelming force.

But....

Let's not forget one thing...

In combat with an opposing force, if the enemy is shooting at you and has the means to shoot at you, they are the ENEMY. Close with them, and destroy them utterly by means of fire, maneuver and shock effect.

The INSTANT that they drop their weapon and surrender, they become a NONCOMBATANT. Shooting them in this case is MURDER.

If a drug smuggler is crossing the border with a load, give them a warning. If they still attempt to cross the border with their load, and do not surrender IMMEDIATELY, blow them to pieces. No quarter.

If, on the other hand, they SURRENDER, AND ARE IN YOUR CUSTODY, SHOOTING AT THEM OR HARMING THEM IN ANY WAY IS ASSAULT. KILLING THEM IS MURDER.

Those of us who wear the badge are NOT judges, juries and/or executioners. It is only by strict adherence to the law that we uphold the law. And that includes the prompt and HUMANE treatment of prisoners, according to OUR law, and the guarantees of the Constitution of the United States.

I DON'T CARE WHAT NATIONALITY THEY ARE, YOU DO NOT SHOOT AN UNARMED, FLEEING SUSPECT WHO HAS NO CAPACITY TO HARM YOU OR ANYONE ELSE.

Remember the soldiers who captured Saddam Hussein? They did NOT shoot him--he faced trial and swung at the end of a rope. How is this man any different?

If we allow this, where does it stop? Do we start shooting fleeing criminals in the United States because we WANT to? For what offense? Murder? Robbery? Shoplifting? Jaywalking? Where would it stop?

From what I see here--and what has been presented--these two men are guilty of aggravated assault. Even worse, they did it under color of law.

Unless someone can prove differently, they deserve every second that they get--in prison.

You can NOT enforce the law by BREAKING the law. No, sir.
 
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I said this on the other board and I'll say it here.

First, the fact that the agents didn't report the shooting doesn't prove that they committed a crime any more than it does that they didn't want to go through all of the hoops and paperwork.

Second, the only evidence that convicts these 2 agents is the testimony of a drug runner who was bringing in close to 1000lbs of dope. While the actions of the agents may not have been forthright, their credibility is certianly no less than the traffickers.

As a result, the only substantial piece of impartial evidence that exists is the report from the doctor and the wound channel. The doctor testified at trial that the wound channel and where he retrieved th ebullet from indicates that the drug runner was shot while he was moving away with his torso turned and arm pointing towards the agents. I don't know about you but when someone is emptying a mag at me I don't stop, turn and point, unless I have something worth pointing with.
 
Stage2 said:
the only substantial piece of impartial evidence that exists is the report from the doctor and the wound channel.
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That's an interestingly bold assertion, Stage. You've dismissed all other testimony of a two week trial, without benefit of transcript, and distilled it down to what the defendants' advocacy group claims one witness said. However, this same group hints that the bullet could not be traced to Ramos' pistol. Therefore, by your reasoning, their second hand evaluation of the Doctor's report is not at all pertinent, is it? After all, according to the advocacy group, we don't know that Ramos hit the man at all (despite trial findings to the contrary). Therefore, there's no "proof" that the man was turned at a angle while running (despite trial findings to the contrary). But we DO know that they FIRED on him 15X while he was fleeing.

See how silly this blind Monday Morning quarterbacking is?
Rich
 
You know, after reading all the links and posts, I'm convinced that if the two BP agents or any other cop for that matter had engaged in the same conduct against an American citizen, everyone on this board and others would be calling for their heads on a stick.

Since the victim was an illegal alien engaged in smuggling an in-demand product across the border, those same folks are wiling to give them a pass. The system for once works like it's supposed to and people are bitching.:confused:


Even if they weren't convicted of any crime, their after-action conduct would dictate that they at least be fired and blackballed from LE.

There is not a set of police procedures to be used for citizens and ones for foreign nationals (except for established protocols).

No matter how bad you screw up, you never alter the scene or file false reports and I don't know about the BP, but my agency requires the submital of a Use of Force report everytime we pull something off our belt other than handcuffs.
 
Eghad-
What does it matter?
Seriously, do the words "suspected", "alleged" or even "indicted" suddenly translate into "Wanted, Dead or Alive".
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dont know where you came up with "dead or alive" :confused:

indicted means that citizens on a jury thought that there was enough evidence to indict him if the indictment exists. Even though the US Attorney claims there is no case :confused:

If we had a provable case against Aldrete, we would prosecute him.
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Seems to me the US Attorney is carefully crafting his words there. Like you said there are two sides to every story.
 
"They were convicted through due process and by a jury of their peers.

They are guilty"

I am not taking sides on this issue, but I have to respond to this remark. Being convicted by your peers does not mean you are guilty, it means you have been convicted. We see people get released from prison who were proven innocent by DNA or otherwise, that was not available at the trial. These people were "convicted by there peers".
 
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I'm convinced that if the two BP agents or any other cop for that matter had engaged in the same conduct against an American citizen, everyone on this board and others would be calling for their heads on a stick.

Since the victim was an illegal alien engaged in smuggling an in-demand product across the border, those same folks are wiling to give them a pass
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I agree 100% with this statement.

This whole movement to free these to guys stinks of prejudice and hatred.

It reminds me of the mentality in the south that used to not want to prosecute white men that hung black men simply because of the color of the victim. They said black men deserved it for dating a white woman or acting too uppity.

It also reminds me of the people that started a movement to get the sentence reduced for the men that killed Matthew Shephard because his "lifestyle" taunted the men into doing what they did to him. Like he somehow deserved it so their crime was less horrific.

If the victim had been a white male smuggling in an illegal firearm and had he received the same treatment everyone would be yelling about the "jackbooted thugs" that gunned him down.
 
Careful with the word hatred. Overemphasis attributed to another's actions to make your argument stronger is a fallacy that detracts from the credibility of your position.

Eghad:
Seems to me the US Attorney is carefully crafting his words there.
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Not so crafty. It sounds like a standard statement from an office that assesses the likelyhood of a conviction. Right or wrong, though he may be. 'Hear it all the time.
 
Careful with the word hatred. Overemphasis attributed to another's actions to make your argument stronger is a fallacy that detracts from the credibility of your position.
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I will have to disagree with you on that one Bud.

Hatred is a very relevant and abundant emotion in the human animal.

The use of this term in no way undermines an argument since it is a factor that often exists in situations where people try to justify injustice and violence against a "certain type of person" simply because of who or what they are...

To deny this fact or try to sugar coat the verbage would be way to lenient on the people who would spread such ideas as it is ok to hurt certain people.

I am not saying that everyone that is defending these men fall into this catagory. I am sure many think they are innocent, were framed, or something along those lines. But the ones that try and say they should be let off because the guy they shot was an illegal or a drug runner need to have a light shown on their reasons for thinking this way.
 
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That's an interestingly bold assertion, Stage. You've dismissed all other testimony of a two week trial, without benefit of transcript, and distilled it down to what the defendants' advocacy group claims one witness said.
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I can’t speak for Stage 2, but I think you misrepresent what he said. The prosecution claims there is the story of the smuggler, which has lies in it according to other prosecution witnesses. The overall story is only substantiated by a witness that does have a reason to lie and that might or might not have been able to see what actually happened (I’ve seen the pictures of the area on the news, it is a 10-12 foot berm that he was supposedly behind), and that the agents picked up their brass and didn’t report the shooting.

The other side of the story comes from the agents. Obviously they have a strong reason to lie, so their story is certainly suspect. To substantiate their story we have all the holes in the prosecution and investigation; the DoJ and DHS refuse to release the ROI to members of congress, the investigator housed the main witness in his own home, the defense claim that a memo showing the smugglers story was different than what he stated in trial was not allowed at the trial, the prosecutor mislead both the jury and the public with statements regarding BP policy, according to jurors, they were pressured into voting the way they did, the doctor that removed the bullet claims the bullet shows Aldrete-Davila was in a bladed stance consistent with him turning to point at the agents as they were shooting at him, and members of the smugglers own family have apparently stated that Aldrete-Davila never moves dope without a weapon (also not allowed in trial). Additionally, it is entirely believable that the agents did report the shooting to their supe, and the supe didn’t report it as he was required. It is a fact that the supe was punished for his handling of the matter.

Do I know what happened? Absolutely not. Do I see a bunch of holes in the prosecutions claims? You damn sure better believe it.
 
The prosecution claims there is the story of the smuggler, which has lies in it according to other prosecution witnesses.
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Source, Please. Or are you going to quote what an advocacy group claims the witness said? I saw a snippet quote from that witness which describes the bullet path, followed by an unconnected conclusion by that advocacy group cleverly designed to appear as the witness' statement. It was not.

The overall story is only substantiated by a witness that does have a reason to lie and that might or might not have been able to see what actually happened
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Source, Please. I saw only an Advocacy Group's statement that the other Border Agent couldn't see the scene, followed by an attempt to discredit that Border Agent as having been somehow complicit in the conspiracy to falsely imprison these guys.

Look, the fact of the matter is that you can retry this case, based on third party Cliff Notes of who said, saw or did whatever as much as you'd like. But these two gents had their chance in court; complete with competent and aggressive counsel. They were found unanimously guilty.

If it's true that the Jurors were forced into their verdict, as that Advocacy Group claims, this is a slam dunk for Appeal. That's what you and I should be asking for, if that's what we believe; not a Presidential Pardon, a reinstatement or a Medal. They have a right to Appeal and I'm certain they'll get it if 1/10 of the conspiracy is based in fact; and it takes no petitions or public outcry to accomplish that.

The petitions for Pardon are plain silly.
Rich
 
"The petitions for Pardon are plain silly"

Right up there with the calls for commendations and expungement

According to the DA these guys were offered plea deals...but they obviously thought their PR machine was gonna bail them out

I actually commend the jury if they truly turned a blind eye to the cops vs drug smuggler aspects and tried the case on its merits

Even if the three jurors were given bad instructions (a natural for appeal) they obviously were not so certain that they dug in ...nope they evidently caved so they could go home;)

But I think it more likely that those three were swayed by public opinion AFTER the verdict

And I notice the plan B appears to be a media blitz hopefully leading to a pardon...not an appeal after being "railroaded"

Some lawmakers get to appear tough on border issues without doing a single thing to actually secure them...these are the guys looking to make a name for themselves...not the prosecutor....we wouldn't even have heard of the case if the prosecutor was writing the press releases

I don't know these guys, but if they truly hid the whole thing to avoid added paperwork (as someone theorized) then I don't really want them guarding the border...and I imagine the paperwork doesn't look quite so onerous now:D

And the bullet path nonsense is just that...I can think of plenty of reasons you could get turned sideways running for your life

I have never thought the punishment fit the crime...but they took their chances in court and lost.

I am certain they were offered several other options that would have meant a lot less time, if any.
 
According to the DA these guys were offered plea deals...but they obviously thought their PR machine was gonna bail them out
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OR, they're not guilty and actually are naive enough to believe the justice system is not corrupt and works the way it's supposed to.

badbob
 
OR, they're not guilty and actually are naive enough to believe the justice system is not corrupt and works the way it's supposed to.
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Well, gee wiz, then; the ENTIRE Court system is rigged. Let's Pardon them and the OTHER TWO MILLION prisoners incarcerated in the Nation with the HIGHEST percentage of population imprisoned of any civilized nation on earth.

These guys are already getting a more fair shake than 99.999% of those other Two Million. Yet, we want to skip right past Court Appeal and demand Presidential Pardon. Why? Because they wore a badge? Because we don't like the guy they shot and failed to report? One cannot claim objectivity, while picking and choosing who the Law should apply to. Nor can one claim understanding of the Bill of Rights.
Rich
 
Rich, of course I believe in the BOR and hopefully the case will get sorted out following the BOR. But, you have to admit that in a lot of cases the system is broken. The Kelo decision comes to mind (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/23/AR2005062300783_pf.html). The BP agents were convicted on the evidence the jurers were allowed to hear, as decided by the judge and the prosecuting attorney. As long as prosecutors continue to advance themselves, politically or otherwise, no matter who it hurts, and judges go along with it, the justice system is going to be suspect (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/16561971.htm).

badbob
 
These two Nazi morons obviously believed that their badges were magic talismans that would protect them from the consequences of their actions, which is usually true. If the shooting even approached the definition of necessity or self defense why did they they pick up their brass and lie about it? Avoiding filling out the paper work is a crock of guano. They get paid the same for filling out the forms as they do for patrolling the border, so what's the problen with the paper work if they're telling the truth? Cops shoot people all the time under questionable circumstances and it's just fine because they're proxy guardians of the state and have a license (i.e a badge) so whatever they say must be the truth, nicht wahr? The fact that these two were prosecuted and found guilty indicates the egregious nature of the violation. If they had just said they shot in self defense and filled out a report everything would have been A-OK, but they must have f-'ed up so bad they couldn't lie their way out of it. If I shot a fleeing burglar in back, picked up my brass, and lied to the investigting authorities about it I would be getting my sunlight in the mail for the rest of my life after a "fair" trial in which I would stand the same chance as Gen Witzleben in the court of Roland Freisler. These Nazi pigs got what they had coming.
 
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