help me understand crimping

The naturally violent feed cycle of an autoloader (bullets hitting the feed ramp) tries to push bullets deeper into the case. the exact opposite of the revolver trying to "pull" the bullets out of the case.

Another thing about semis is that hitting the feed ramp only happens to one round at a time, unlike a revolver where all the other rounds in the cylinder are subject to the force of bullet creep due to recoil.

Rounds in the magazine of a semi never seem to show any bullet pull effects from recoil. I believe because they can shift a small amount, so the bullet inertia does not have as great an effect.

heavy enough recoil can batter exposed lead SP or HP bullet noses though.

And, looking back, I see I left out something. Meant to say

roll crimp vs. taper crimp doesn't matter when your case headspaces on the rim.
 
Not necessarily the "exact opposite" as the chambered round slams home in to full battery -- VERY similar to the effects of a recoiling revolver. Agreed, only to a single round at a time.

Look, we can make peace here. All I am attempting to do in response to your post is stand up a bit for plated bullets. You don't care for them (absolutely fine) but others just might, I'm here to suggest that they offer a lot.

On one hand, you've been at this longer than I have. And on the other -- I have seemingly far more experience (and positive, quality experience) with plated handgun bullets.

Truly, I believe that running a normal-for-caliber weight plated bullet in .38 Special (125-158gr) works extremely well in .38 Special regardless of a cannelure present.

I might say it works XTREMELY well. ;)
 
Sevens, gotta disagree on part. One would think that a slide slamming home would jar a bullet loose, but the problem is that it never really slams

That inertia is broken up into many small stutters, such as when the round is stripped, when it hits feed ramp, slide hits and locks up... It. Really takes a lot of power to pull a bullet with inertia, if you've used a puller you've seen that.

A revolver presents that inertia in a solid, hard, unmitigated jab. It's probably worse than a bullet puller sometimes.

I never thought much about crimping when I fired only .38. Then, I bough some .357 bullets that turned out to measure only .355-356. Well, some of them started pulling in spite of the heavy crimp. I hadn't noticed the loose fit while seating, but later co u d out that with a few rounds I could even twist the bullets in circles with pliers.

That was just one of the ridiculous things that have happened over the last year. Last Christmas I took my nephew out, with my coach gun. The damned shells wouldn't extract! The Winchester loads without reeding along the hull were locking into the slight imperfections in the chamber. My federal shells dropped out, these required a stiff yank on the barrel to break them loose.

Nobody would have had that problem but me. I had one in a thousande guns. It had two less than perfect chambers with honing that allowed the hulls to grab and hold sit took a lot of leverage to extract them.

Everything we do is rife with chaos, and any time we start thinking we have a real grasp on our lives we will open up Facebook and find a photo of our twelve year old daughter sitting inside a cage petting a Bengal tiger.

Well, to be completely honest, I was there, it was just a cub, and she wasn't in a cage. Just to make sure that we didn't walk away unscathed, however, it peed on her. I never imagined that tiger piss could smell so bad.

Expect and anticipate failure.
 
I'm not trying to go to war over plated bullets, nor insult or denigrate them or their users in any way. They are just ..different, and to me, neither fish nor fowl, nor good red meat, as the saying goes.

For most of my handgun shooting cast bullets are virtually ideal. For the rest, jacketed slugs. Never having a need for plated, I never bothered to find a use.

I don't mean to sound like I'm saying you shouldn't use them, I'm not.

I'm quirky. sorry if that comes off sounding disapproving, that was not my intent.

My experience with .38s in medium and larger revolvers is that the recoil usually isn't enough to make jumping the crimp an issue, even if there isn't really any crimp. Proper bullet fit (neck tension) is usually enough, though I always crimp them as a standard practice.

Interesting you are shooting them out of a Coonan, and reporting good results.
I have a Coonan model A, one of the original 1500 made. I have shot it, but don't shoot it much. I had a .357 Desert Eagle for several years, shot it a lot, learned how to feed its quirks with my handloads. Traded it off some time back (have the .44 now), but I have my eye on a .357 that a friend has....

For the DE, I always crimped .357s, and well, exactly the same as for revolver use. If the loads were hot enough, it ran well. 1720fps with a 125gr JHP sound good? ;)

I've got a Contender barrel(s) for .357, (and several other calibers) where I could be fine shooting uncrimped ammo. But I don't bother with regular pistol rounds (.30-30 is another matter), I just shoot the normally crimped rounds I make for my revolvers.
 
Yes, I suppose it's prudent that I go on record here in that I do prefer plated handgun bullets to... jungle cat urine. ?!?! :confused:
 
Jungle cat urine.

Walking a traumatized twelve year old out of the mall with stinking lion piss all over her pretty dress was a gauntlet I don't want to run again.

I honestly can't remember what cat it was, they had several cubs, it was an opportunity to exploit the lion king. Then, maybe ten years later, my wife let her ride a camel at the renaissance fair. Camel smells pretty bad too, when you are closed up in a Honda civic on a hot day.

It's no freaking wonder people kill critters.
 
You know, that thought brings back something that my dad told me once. The old black powder shooters would pee down the barrel of their rifles if the didn't have fresh water, rather than leave the rust inducing salts in the bore.

I was literally speechless
 
My die sets didn't come with crimping dies but I'm not sure if that means anything or not other than they want to get as much money from me as they can.
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I have dies, many different dies made by different manufacturers. I have dies with different names that were made by the same manufacturer, I am proud of everyone of them; when I mention a die I always identify the die by brand. If the brand of die I list bothers someone it bothers them more than it bothers me.

So, what brand of die are you using. If you are using Dillon dies there is a chance your seating die does not crimp because Dillon believe seating and crimping at the same time is a bad habit.

F. Guffey
 
And then there is the question: Does my seating die crimp? I suggest you place a case into the seating die and shove the case into the seating die with any means possible. If you experience resistance to shoving the case into the die the die has the ability to crimp the case.

Back to 'what ever means' do not forget the shell holder deck height. The deck height of the shell holder is .125". When you are using 'what ever means' use a shell holder. Then remove the case from the die and check for a crimp.

F. Guffey
 
If you experience resistance to shoving the case into the die the die has the ability to crimp the case.
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Not necessarily.

Shoving a flared case into the seating die will have some resistance. Resistance of a case entering the die, alone, isn't proof the die is made to crimp.

Generally speaking all modern die sets that don't have a separate crimp die are made so the seating die can crimp, either taper or roll crimp. There may be exceptions, but if so, I don't know of any.

If you want to check, rather then shoving a case into the die, screw the die onto the case. Take a case of correct length, unflared,, put it in the shellholder and raise the ram to the top.

With the seating stem backed off (or removed) screw the die body down into the press over the raised case, with FINGER pressure only. Note how the die body screws down over the case with no resistance at all, UNTIL it doesn't. You can feel it when it touches the case, and feel the resistance increase, when you try to turn the die body down further. This is the crimp shoulder in the die, pressing on the case.

Note that the bottom of the die is still well above the shellholder. An alternate way to tell if your die will crimp is simply run the die body down to touch the shell holder when the ram is all the way up, then put an empty case in the shellholder and run it all the way up, and see how much the die crimps it.

I can almost guarantee if you do that, you will find the case is crimped, to a degree way beyond what you are going to use loading ammo.
 
I can't help you out with your semi auto loads but I think the solution to your revolver loads will be the lee FCD.

I always seat and crimp in separate operations. I load everything from very light 38 spec. target loads to 44 mag. heavy loads. Yes, I do load for the 41 mag.

I have never had any revolver load that I crimped with the FCD that didn't just drop into the cylinder without any resistance whatsoever. The separate sizing ring on the die takes care of any misalignment that may have happened during the seating process. I have never had a round jump the crimp either.

I may sound like a shill for Lee, but the FCD is a product that I really believe in. Try it....You'll like it.:)
 
I have Lee FCD dies, I do not use them but I have them just in case.

Not necessarily.
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You left out the part about the radius at the opening of the die and there have been reloaders that have pealed the case back down one side when seating and crimping and the seating does not have case body support.

F. Guffey
 
Good info on taper crimp.
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Reminds me of the Johnny Carson show; "Everything you ever wanted to know about a seating die”.

To me it is the same with the length of the chamber; I want to know the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face in thousandths. And I want to know if the seating die crimps and I want to know where the crimp is located. Reloaders do not know how many changes RCBS went through when developing seating dies. I have expander dies with aluminum die bodies; the aluminum dies bodies were made to correct the mistake they made when they put the primer punch on the expander die. After that they started numbering the dies to prevent reloaders from punching/installing primers on the number one position and punching them out on the number two position.

And they made crimp dies for the 38 Special, and then they made crimp dies for the 357 Magnum. It was never necessary to make the 357 Magnum crimp dies because the 38 special crimp die would crimp the 38 Special and 357 Magnum case. All the reloader had to do was adjust the die to crimp. It was about that time shims were introduced to reloaders. I never needed the shim because I adjusted the die off the shell holder with a feeler gage, a thick feeler gage.

All of the dies I mention are still out here, it is not easy to cover everything a reloader needs to know without covering everything. Anyhow, if a reloader wants to know where the crimp is located use a shell holder with a deck height of .125"; after that use a feeler gage to determine the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die.

F. Guffey
 
Crimp die adjustment for 9mm and 41 mag.
SeatCrimpDieAdjustment_zpsj3egqkfo.jpg
 
That is the proper procedure and it takes some trial and error.
It's a big assumption that you will have uniform case lengths, and that is why I recommend setting seating die without a crimp and then crimping separately, crimping by feel and checking for proper work until you feel confident. One is correct and quicker, and you can still crimp be feel, and the other takes an extra step and maybe won't work any better.

In any case, lock the dies in place for your most common round, and every time, make a dummy to speed up set up. I have a big bok that I got at harbor freight that has dozens of other small boxes and it holds dummies with taped labels.
 
and that is why I recommend setting seating die without a crimp
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And before that it was suggested seating and crimping at the same time could be a bad habit. And then some companies that make seating made dies that do not crimp.

And before that it was suggested the seating depth be set first; after determining the seating depth the seating plug was to be back off and then the crimp was to be adjusted. After the crimp was set the seating plug was to be adjusted to the bullet.

F. Guffey
 
Of course, guffey, the subject of how to crimp takes hours of discussion, but it is a wide subject with lots of answers, and no one clear answer. Even at the point of crimp at th a same time or crime separately.

I see it as pretty much a wasted time to ponder it myself, I do what I do out of habit, and feel compelled to make as may people as I possibly can do exactly the same thing I do, because it makes me feel smart if people agree with me or follow my advice.
 
Of course, guffey, the subject of how to crimp takes hours of discussion…
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Briandg, I could say I do not care and or it does not matter but I would be lying. I care and it matters. In my opinion it makes more sense if the rational if given. How is one thing; why is another. Long before the Internet it was suggested crimping bottle neck cases was a bad habit. Dillon told me I was going to have to replace all of my dies because my dies crimp and seat at the same time. They changed their mind when I told them I did not need their press because I was not starting over with new dies. It was at about that point they gave me an exception, they said I could use my dies and they qualified the answer with “they had a lot of reloaders that used dies that were not Dillon.

Then it goes beyond being a bad habit when reloaders choose to crimp jacketed bullets. Somewhere it has been written it is a bad habit to crimp jacketed bullets without a crimp groove, I have a tool that rolls grooves into bullets, if the bullet does not have a groove I can add one, if I have a bullet that has a groove but is not where I want it, I can add one.

One of my best crimp jobs is done with a carbide full length sizing die. I use the carbide sizing die to remove the ''case swallowed a bullet look". I have 2 45ACPs that like new/over the counter ammo.

F. Guffey
 
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