help me understand crimping
- Thread starter Ocraknife
- Start date
The problem with the uncerimped round that I mentioned was that the outer edge of the still lightly belled brass was crushed into the cylinder walls, and held quite tightly. H are to explain, I guess, but it only grabbed at that tiny ring at the end of the flare.
A number of people died in the really early years at lots Alamos, in a series of ac currents cidents. You know, the sort of accidents that happen, we say "OOPS!" And move on. These accidents weren't the sort of things that you move on from. One guy had been working on a chemical mixer there, only a few pounds of plutonium, but the water, the plutonium, shape and type of container caused the plutonium to go critical for only a fraction of a second, and nuked him like a hot dog on a plate. He lived about twenty hours, and died about as hard as a person could. It was for a while thought to be the very worst accidental dosage.
Yes, these guys know what they're doing, and still, we occasionally have to bury someone in a lead coffin.
Slot in and his screwdriver were a genuine Darwinian example.
A number of people died in the really early years at lots Alamos, in a series of ac currents cidents. You know, the sort of accidents that happen, we say "OOPS!" And move on. These accidents weren't the sort of things that you move on from. One guy had been working on a chemical mixer there, only a few pounds of plutonium, but the water, the plutonium, shape and type of container caused the plutonium to go critical for only a fraction of a second, and nuked him like a hot dog on a plate. He lived about twenty hours, and died about as hard as a person could. It was for a while thought to be the very worst accidental dosage.
Yes, these guys know what they're doing, and still, we occasionally have to bury someone in a lead coffin.
Slot in and his screwdriver were a genuine Darwinian example.
turtlehead
New member
I had ordered a Lee FCD in 223 right before this thread was started. So I just loaded up 10 rounds with the Lee FC and 10 rounds with the Dillon taper crimp. I guess I'll see for myself. 
The factory crimp does look pretty so at least there's that.
The factory crimp does look pretty so at least there's that.
turtlehead
New member
Also bought a 380 case guague before that other thread... But that's another topic...
I was one of "those guys" for over 30 years. Certified Fissile Material Handler, HazMat first responder, Nuclear Process Operator/Reactor Fuels operator. The list of the training I've had is literally a couple dozen pages long. Spent decades getting workers into, working in, and safety out of almost every kind of hazardous environment, including IDLH.
I must apologize a little bit, but this..
Kind of hit one of my personal buttons. Perhaps it was the phrasing. NO body has died from experiments that went right. Some have died from ACCIDENTS that happened during experiments, and more from ACCIDENTS that happened during processing and production. One of the guys I knew WAS buried in a lead coffin. So, please forgive me if I'm a little touchy about what is said, and the way it is said when it comes to these things. (rant mode:OFF
)Agreed. (providing you are shooting them in a revolver,
)Agreed, again. And I'm probably one of the guilty there...
One of the most difficult things I've found (about a lot of things) is remembering how little I knew, before I learned what I now know.
Reloading isn't rocket surgery, its just a little bit of brain science. A LOT of us spent our formative years in reloading climbing up the learning curve without the benefit of experienced people to help us, outside of what we could read in books and magazines. Today, the internet and places like TFL are an absolute boon to beginners that we never had. The only downside is the risk of information overload.
Am happy to help, and usually able to tell you way more than you need to know!
My first answer would be... "that is probably NOT a revolver bullet..."
But if you're talking about a plated slug with no cannelure, then the answer is LIGHTLY. You really do not want to cut through the very thin plating. I would suggest you impart your roll crimp by feel and then use a bullet pullet to remove that slug and inspect it. You may want to see the line around the bullet that you made, but you absolutely do not want to see that think plating CUT with lead exposed.
A plated bullet without a cannelure or crimp groove is -NOT- a good candidate for high speeds and/or moderate to heavy recoil. It's just a poor choice for the job.
I definitely agree with later suggestions to not subject yourself to information overload and succumb to the idea that this stuff is difficult. Trust me... this stuff is NOT difficult.
Thank you.
Like you suspected, they are plated, the bullets in question are:
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....iameter-210-grain-flat-point-plated-500-count
Like you suspected, they are plated, the bullets in question are:
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....iameter-210-grain-flat-point-plated-500-count
I honestly believe those will give you trouble if you attempt to run them at full magnum speeds, 1200+ fps. What is most likely to happen is that yet-unfired loaded rounded will "jump" forward and tie up your cylinder under full recoil unless you give them a very firm crimp.
And a very firm crimp may cut through the plating which can make the bullet come apart after leaving the barrel... giving horribly bad accuracy.
If I had those slugs, I would work with a middle-speed powder and run them 900-1000 fps rather than full-bore.
With all that said...
I don't see an immediate or serious "safety" concern in trying them. I would definitely say that it's not a great place for a beginning handloader to attempt success, but I personally wouldn't be afraid to try and make them work.
Though I don't own a .41 Mag anymore...
I would have to say that I simply wouldn't buy those slugs.
And a very firm crimp may cut through the plating which can make the bullet come apart after leaving the barrel... giving horribly bad accuracy.
If I had those slugs, I would work with a middle-speed powder and run them 900-1000 fps rather than full-bore.
With all that said...
I don't see an immediate or serious "safety" concern in trying them. I would definitely say that it's not a great place for a beginning handloader to attempt success, but I personally wouldn't be afraid to try and make them work.
Though I don't own a .41 Mag anymore...
I would have to say that I simply wouldn't buy those slugs.
If I had those slugs I would trade or sell them. Those bullets look to be about perfect for the .41AE (a semi auto pistol round) but are undesirable as .41 Mag revolver slugs.
There is a way to use them in the magnum revolver, but it takes getting into the more advanced stuff, like seating deep enough to crimp over the edge of the bullet body where it begins its taper. Loads would have to be tailored for the different seating depth, but it could be done.
Best solution is to avoid any slugs that do not have a cannelure, or ones that are made so one can crimp over the front driving band.
Personally, I don't care for plated bullets. They have unique issues not found with regular jacketed bullets or with lead slugs. For me, their drawbacks are not worth the price.
Which is why they sell so many.
everyone has their likes and dislikes, above and beyond actual advantages and disadvantages. And that's why we have so much choice in a free market system.
You think its a better mousetrap, you buy it, your happy.
I think its not, I don't buy it, I'm happy.
Every time I go out to dinner, there's something on the menu I don't like. Guy at the next table loves it. As long as we all get fed, its all good.
jetinteriorguy
New member
Or you can just get the collet crimp die from Lee and it will crimp very tight without cutting through the copper plating.
Amp, I hear your concerns, and you are quite right. Only ten or so over decades is only "a lot" if you examine those figures in the context of what they were doing and the level of care that was called for. Slot in, was it Fermi who told home that he'd kill himself someday? Then there is the other type of failure. When something so absolutely off the scale unexpected happens that it was maybe impossible to properly anticipate. Looking at fukushima, we can say that the situation with the generator system failed, but can we as a society actually point blame for it on the one literal thing that was at fault, and ignore the fact that there were dozens of possible points of failure?
People who can't even drive to the store safely have no business being so damned eager to throw blame Willy nilly when the truly unexpected strikes.
Like fukushima, when the tornado hit joplin, gee, the generator system was outside. Many emergency generators are outside. When emergency equipment is literally scrubbed away by unexpected calamity, it's really simple to throw blame, such as saying that the generators belong in a safe place
If this really has any point in a reloading thread at all, I guess that it's that no matter how careful a person is, an f5 tornado or billions of tons of Tzu n am I water are just waiting to happen.
People who can't even drive to the store safely have no business being so damned eager to throw blame Willy nilly when the truly unexpected strikes.
Like fukushima, when the tornado hit joplin, gee, the generator system was outside. Many emergency generators are outside. When emergency equipment is literally scrubbed away by unexpected calamity, it's really simple to throw blame, such as saying that the generators belong in a safe place
If this really has any point in a reloading thread at all, I guess that it's that no matter how careful a person is, an f5 tornado or billions of tons of Tzu n am I water are just waiting to happen.
Maybe I was influenced by my own prejudices, but I read the preceding posts as being primarily concerned with the absence of a cannalure. I agree with your enthusiasm for X-Treme bullets, but the ones I buy for .38 special have a cannalure. (Did I spell it right? Spell check wants me to put "Canaveral" in there. @*#&*$^ newfangled contraption!)
Going to the crimp situation, I think that nearly everything has been covered at this point, but I believe that a plated bullet in a revolver calls for what completely different type of crimp. Not a roll crimp, or a taper, and I'm not even certain that the Lee crimp is correct.
Imo, getting rid of the separate crimp die that you could buy years ago was an error. A plated bullet in a revolver probably deserves a very heavily squished taper for the firs 1/8". This will compress the brass and even leave a slight bottleneck like a roll crimp does...
I a free that a plated bullet of the type currently sold aren't proper for magnum loads, if for no other reason than they aren't set up for the heavy crimp that is needed for safety. You also have the question of lead hardness. Sure, the very light copper wash that is used on rimfire used to work on heavy rounds to prevent leading, but that's a horse of a different color. I can't stop wondering about the effectiveness of a plated bullet in heavy loads. Just recently, I fired some, and I could not believe what I had found. The lands of the barrel had literally peeled back a layer of lead like a b banana and even folded it around the base of the bullet before leaving the barrel.
Once you think you have a grip on something, there will a l ways be something new hit you like a junebug in the face during a nice ride in the country.
Imo, getting rid of the separate crimp die that you could buy years ago was an error. A plated bullet in a revolver probably deserves a very heavily squished taper for the firs 1/8". This will compress the brass and even leave a slight bottleneck like a roll crimp does...
I a free that a plated bullet of the type currently sold aren't proper for magnum loads, if for no other reason than they aren't set up for the heavy crimp that is needed for safety. You also have the question of lead hardness. Sure, the very light copper wash that is used on rimfire used to work on heavy rounds to prevent leading, but that's a horse of a different color. I can't stop wondering about the effectiveness of a plated bullet in heavy loads. Just recently, I fired some, and I could not believe what I had found. The lands of the barrel had literally peeled back a layer of lead like a b banana and even folded it around the base of the bullet before leaving the barrel.
Once you think you have a grip on something, there will a l ways be something new hit you like a junebug in the face during a nice ride in the country.
It seems like a lot of what is getting posted dips far further in to "theory" and while doing so... appears to sidestep what we may actually be doing.
I have no problem being completely candid with what I actually do and with the results I actually get.
In something like .38 Special, there is NOTHING wrong with a firm, solid roll crimp, if that is your taste. Myself, I find that to be most unnecessary and offering very little to no benefit whatsoever. And I load and shoot a LOT of .38 Special on any scale where you might measure it.
In an obscure and not specifically helpful to most bit--
A lot of the .38 that I load and shoot is a 125gr TMJ, no cannelure, where I apply a very light roll crimp AND run fast (for .38) at over 1,000fps in a self-loading Coonan Classic. All it does is run run run and endlessly mow down steel plates. No ill-effects from lack of cannelure or my process using a light roll crimp.
Real results, not off on a tangent discussing theory.
(To be clear, I very much appreciate and learn from discussions on theory... I just also like to see real-world techniques and results discussed too)
I have no problem being completely candid with what I actually do and with the results I actually get.
In something like .38 Special, there is NOTHING wrong with a firm, solid roll crimp, if that is your taste. Myself, I find that to be most unnecessary and offering very little to no benefit whatsoever. And I load and shoot a LOT of .38 Special on any scale where you might measure it.
In an obscure and not specifically helpful to most bit--
A lot of the .38 that I load and shoot is a 125gr TMJ, no cannelure, where I apply a very light roll crimp AND run fast (for .38) at over 1,000fps in a self-loading Coonan Classic. All it does is run run run and endlessly mow down steel plates. No ill-effects from lack of cannelure or my process using a light roll crimp.
Real results, not off on a tangent discussing theory.
(To be clear, I very much appreciate and learn from discussions on theory... I just also like to see real-world techniques and results discussed too)