This really helps. Thanks.
Help Identifying this S&W .38
- Thread starter 8bit
- Start date
Doug Bowser
New member
I knew a new shooter that wanted a S&W snub nosed Cheifs Special. A local shop sold him a S&W "Terrier" in .38 S&W, as a .38 special. He was sold .38 special ammo for it. Of course, the ammo did not fit. On closer inspection, the serial number on the bottom of the grip frame was gound off. They used the frame assembly number under the crane, as a serial number.
When we took it back, they did no want to exchange it until I showed them the serial number issue and told them the ATF would be notified. No problem after that.
I told my friend that I should go with him to purchase a handgun. I guess he thought buying a used revolver was a cut and dried procedure. It is not. The shop owner probably did not know any better, either.
The OP's handgun would have a .360" bore snd I have not seen good accuracy from a .360" bore and regular .38 Special ammuniion. The only .357" bullet that gives reasonable accuracy in a .360" bore is hollow based wadcutters. Also, the chamber will be oversized and extraction can be difficult and cases may split with .38 special ammunition.
Doug
When we took it back, they did no want to exchange it until I showed them the serial number issue and told them the ATF would be notified. No problem after that.
I told my friend that I should go with him to purchase a handgun. I guess he thought buying a used revolver was a cut and dried procedure. It is not. The shop owner probably did not know any better, either.
The OP's handgun would have a .360" bore snd I have not seen good accuracy from a .360" bore and regular .38 Special ammuniion. The only .357" bullet that gives reasonable accuracy in a .360" bore is hollow based wadcutters. Also, the chamber will be oversized and extraction can be difficult and cases may split with .38 special ammunition.
Doug
99% of the time such a simple transaction as buying a .38 Special revolver goes without a hitch.
Considering that pesky 1% where the shop people either don't know or see a way to dispose of something that otherwise isn't moving, it's good to do some research first & know what you're doing, or take a knowledgeable friend along who does.
Not always feasible, though, and that's where the "after-action" horror stories come from.
At least 8 got on here soon after the buy & didn't wait to find out things don't add up on that gun before learning the hard way later on.
Denis
Considering that pesky 1% where the shop people either don't know or see a way to dispose of something that otherwise isn't moving, it's good to do some research first & know what you're doing, or take a knowledgeable friend along who does.
Not always feasible, though, and that's where the "after-action" horror stories come from.
At least 8 got on here soon after the buy & didn't wait to find out things don't add up on that gun before learning the hard way later on.
Denis
Yeah, in hindsight, I definitely should have taken someone more knowledgeable. But believe it or not I did do a fair amount of research first. Although obviously not enough. Mostly I was just researching what KIND of gun would fit my situation best. Not so much what to actually look for. Lesson learned.
The thought that a legit store could have a gun mislabeled never even crossed my mind. Truthfully, the refinish by itself would not have really bothered me. And I don't necessarily blame them for not pointing that one out. But add in the fact that it was rechambered AND isn't even a Model 10 and I get the feeling they were just trying to unload a tough to sell gun that had probably been sitting there awhile. Especially since, as mentioned earlier, at one point I was holding this gun as well as another blue legit (<-I'm betting) Model 10 and asked what the guy thought between the two. He didn't steer me toward the one I picked but did say "can't go wrong with either". If I were in his shoes I definitely would've pointed out at least one of the flaws with the Frankenstein gun.
Anyway, I'm heading back to the store when I get off work in 4 or 5 hours. Hopefully all goes smoothly. I will be sure to update this thread when I'm done.
The thought that a legit store could have a gun mislabeled never even crossed my mind. Truthfully, the refinish by itself would not have really bothered me. And I don't necessarily blame them for not pointing that one out. But add in the fact that it was rechambered AND isn't even a Model 10 and I get the feeling they were just trying to unload a tough to sell gun that had probably been sitting there awhile. Especially since, as mentioned earlier, at one point I was holding this gun as well as another blue legit (<-I'm betting) Model 10 and asked what the guy thought between the two. He didn't steer me toward the one I picked but did say "can't go wrong with either". If I were in his shoes I definitely would've pointed out at least one of the flaws with the Frankenstein gun.
Anyway, I'm heading back to the store when I get off work in 4 or 5 hours. Hopefully all goes smoothly. I will be sure to update this thread when I'm done.
Okay, just got back from the store.
Short story
Good news: They did an even trade for another actual Model 10.
Bad news: They likely just lost a customer for life and therefore I lost access to the LGS with the most selection and best prices.
Long story
I approached one of the owners (a woman, probably 50's) and gave her the gist of my complaint. She says "Oh, that's definitely a Model 10 hun". I tell her what I had found out upon further research and the unimanimous feedback I received here (i.e. this gun is NOT technically a Model 10 AND it has been refinished AND it has been rechambered). She scoffs and says "Let's ask my gunsmith". Oh, and BTW she refused to believe it had been rechambered even though any experienced gun person could easily tell by the barrel markings. She just goes "It says Special right there" which really had me really questioning her competency anyway.
Surprise surprise the gunsmith backs her up. He says this is in fact a Model 10. He says "M&P's are Model 10's. It's the same exact thing." I tell him that while they certainly look the same I had been told by "experts"
that modern Model 10 parts would not fit my gun and that was my main concern. He says "Oh no that's not true. Model 10 parts will definitely fit this gun. It is a Model 10 after all." I bring up the short action/long action thing. I bring up the fact that the serial number dates it to the early 40's. I bring up that it has clearly been rechambered to .38 special. All I get is "It's a Model 10".
Whatever man. I don't really know what to do/say at this point. I just tell them I'd really be more comfortable if I could trade it in on a similarly priced Model 10. After all I had only purchased it two days ago and never even fired it. So after a lot of hemming and hawing, she agrees. And she makes zero effort to mask her anger about it.
After I have picked out the gun I'd like to trade for she makes no hurry to help me. I stand there a good 5-10 minutes before she gives me any attention. She then has me fill out the necessary paper work then leaves me standing there for literally 15 minutes. I know. I was looking at my watch the whole time. She finally came back then left two more times to help other customers (there were 2 other employees behind the counter who she could have easily told to handle the other customers).
Here's the kicker. The moment when I decided I won't be giving this place another dime of my money. As she is filling out the paperwork another employee (who sold the first gun to me and was extremely nice) comes by and says "You trading?" and the owner interjects "Yeah. He's got a lot to learn about Smith & Wessons."
Which, to be fair, is true. But I mean, how freaking condescending and rude. I give her a death stare but otherwise bite my tongue. I would've liked to tell her that she herself has a lot to learn about S&W as well.
I'm a small business owner myself and I would never treat a customer like that. Just totally uncalled for. But oh well. I hope her little tantrum was worth a lifelong customer. I'm already eying my next gun and I sure as heck won't be buying it there.
Short story
Good news: They did an even trade for another actual Model 10.
Bad news: They likely just lost a customer for life and therefore I lost access to the LGS with the most selection and best prices.
Long story
I approached one of the owners (a woman, probably 50's) and gave her the gist of my complaint. She says "Oh, that's definitely a Model 10 hun". I tell her what I had found out upon further research and the unimanimous feedback I received here (i.e. this gun is NOT technically a Model 10 AND it has been refinished AND it has been rechambered). She scoffs and says "Let's ask my gunsmith". Oh, and BTW she refused to believe it had been rechambered even though any experienced gun person could easily tell by the barrel markings. She just goes "It says Special right there" which really had me really questioning her competency anyway.
Surprise surprise the gunsmith backs her up. He says this is in fact a Model 10. He says "M&P's are Model 10's. It's the same exact thing." I tell him that while they certainly look the same I had been told by "experts"
that modern Model 10 parts would not fit my gun and that was my main concern. He says "Oh no that's not true. Model 10 parts will definitely fit this gun. It is a Model 10 after all." I bring up the short action/long action thing. I bring up the fact that the serial number dates it to the early 40's. I bring up that it has clearly been rechambered to .38 special. All I get is "It's a Model 10". Whatever man. I don't really know what to do/say at this point. I just tell them I'd really be more comfortable if I could trade it in on a similarly priced Model 10. After all I had only purchased it two days ago and never even fired it. So after a lot of hemming and hawing, she agrees. And she makes zero effort to mask her anger about it.
After I have picked out the gun I'd like to trade for she makes no hurry to help me. I stand there a good 5-10 minutes before she gives me any attention. She then has me fill out the necessary paper work then leaves me standing there for literally 15 minutes. I know. I was looking at my watch the whole time. She finally came back then left two more times to help other customers (there were 2 other employees behind the counter who she could have easily told to handle the other customers).
Here's the kicker. The moment when I decided I won't be giving this place another dime of my money. As she is filling out the paperwork another employee (who sold the first gun to me and was extremely nice) comes by and says "You trading?" and the owner interjects "Yeah. He's got a lot to learn about Smith & Wessons."
Which, to be fair, is true. But I mean, how freaking condescending and rude. I give her a death stare but otherwise bite my tongue. I would've liked to tell her that she herself has a lot to learn about S&W as well.I'm a small business owner myself and I would never treat a customer like that. Just totally uncalled for. But oh well. I hope her little tantrum was worth a lifelong customer. I'm already eying my next gun and I sure as heck won't be buying it there.
Last edited:
8,
First, I'm glad you were able to work out a trade.
Second, I'd never set foot in that place again. Period.
I anticipated they'd give you some resistance, which is why I laid things out in detail & suggested you know enough to intelligently argue with them.
The Model 10 IS technically an M&P, but not ALL M&Ps are Model 10s. They are most definitely not "the exact same thing".
The gunsmith was full of asterisks in telling you modern Model 10 parts will fit in your gun. You now know they won't & you know why they won't.
This shows quite clearly one of two things: either they're dishonest or they're incompetent. Hopefully just the latter, but either way they obviously can't be trusted.
If you doubt anything I told you, and you want to learn a bit (or a lot) more about Smiths in general and Model 10s in particular, the current edition of The Standard Catalog Of Smith & Wesson should be available on Amazon (it's not a catalog, it's an excellent reference book on Smiths from the beginning & well worth the money).
Another source would be the older History Of Smith & Wesson by Roy Jinks, their company historian. That one may be hard to find nowdays.
You can find your M&P in both, and you can find your Model 10 in both.
The caliber switch is easy, I'm not the only one who told you about it.
The re-finish is easy, to the best of my knowledge S&W did not produce any M&P in 1942 with a nickel finish. They also have not routinely nickeled the hammer & trigger, as mentioned before.
We didn't even really get into the grips, beyond one mention. Those were made long after 1942 & beyond question not the originals that shipped with the gun.
Sounds like you remained much calmer than I would have.
Hope you enjoy your "new" 10.
If you have any questions about it, don't be afraid to ask.
Denis
First, I'm glad you were able to work out a trade.
Second, I'd never set foot in that place again. Period.
I anticipated they'd give you some resistance, which is why I laid things out in detail & suggested you know enough to intelligently argue with them.
The Model 10 IS technically an M&P, but not ALL M&Ps are Model 10s. They are most definitely not "the exact same thing".
The gunsmith was full of asterisks in telling you modern Model 10 parts will fit in your gun. You now know they won't & you know why they won't.
This shows quite clearly one of two things: either they're dishonest or they're incompetent. Hopefully just the latter, but either way they obviously can't be trusted.
If you doubt anything I told you, and you want to learn a bit (or a lot) more about Smiths in general and Model 10s in particular, the current edition of The Standard Catalog Of Smith & Wesson should be available on Amazon (it's not a catalog, it's an excellent reference book on Smiths from the beginning & well worth the money).
Another source would be the older History Of Smith & Wesson by Roy Jinks, their company historian. That one may be hard to find nowdays.
You can find your M&P in both, and you can find your Model 10 in both.
The caliber switch is easy, I'm not the only one who told you about it.
The re-finish is easy, to the best of my knowledge S&W did not produce any M&P in 1942 with a nickel finish. They also have not routinely nickeled the hammer & trigger, as mentioned before.
We didn't even really get into the grips, beyond one mention. Those were made long after 1942 & beyond question not the originals that shipped with the gun.
Sounds like you remained much calmer than I would have.
Hope you enjoy your "new" 10.
If you have any questions about it, don't be afraid to ask.
Denis
Thanks Denis. I don't doubt a single thing that you have told me. The gunsmith actually did tell the owner that the gun had obviously been rechambered. She was oblivious though. And the thing that really irked me was the gunsmith said on more than one occasion "I'm not really a Smith & Wesson guy". Yet he was definitively telling me and the owner that this was in fact a model 10 and there was no difference in the parts. 
I do have one quick question. The gun I traded for is a Model 10-6 with the heavy barrel. Will this handle +P ammo or should I just stick to regular pressure?
I truly believe it's incompetency. The gunsmith was very nice, but just seemed somewhat ill informed. That made it very hard to argue my case. Because they both knew I am new to owning revolvers. I told the gunsmith "Hey, I'm not doubting your knowledge as you are obviously much more knowledgeable than me. I'm just telling you what several S&W enthusiasts have told me." Still, he stuck to his story despite "not really being a S&W guy".
It was really tough to remain calm. But again I was in the awkward position of being the newb trying to tell the "experts" what's what. They looked at me like I had no idea what I'm talking about even though I knew I was right. It was a very frustrating situation for sure.
I do have one quick question. The gun I traded for is a Model 10-6 with the heavy barrel. Will this handle +P ammo or should I just stick to regular pressure?
+P all day long, all week long, and twice as long on Sunday's. 
Your heavy barrel 10 is the carbon steel version of my stainless 64. Both can handle more +P than you'll want to buy.
Sad commentary on that so-called "gunsmith". Guy has no business calling himself one (I could not be more serious) if he doesn't know any of the generational differences between a WWII M&P and a modern Model 10.
8, at the point where you walked back into that store today, you knew more than enough to discuss & defend your position, and it sounds like you knew more about your gun than the "expert".
In other words, in that respect he was not "more knowledgeable" than you were.
He demonstrated an appalling ignorance for a gunsmith of one of S&W's longest-running and highest-selling model's history.
Seriously, order that S&W Standard Catalog book. Not expensive, and it's a great way to start learning about Smiths.
Denis
Your heavy barrel 10 is the carbon steel version of my stainless 64. Both can handle more +P than you'll want to buy.
Sad commentary on that so-called "gunsmith". Guy has no business calling himself one (I could not be more serious) if he doesn't know any of the generational differences between a WWII M&P and a modern Model 10.
8, at the point where you walked back into that store today, you knew more than enough to discuss & defend your position, and it sounds like you knew more about your gun than the "expert".
In other words, in that respect he was not "more knowledgeable" than you were.
He demonstrated an appalling ignorance for a gunsmith of one of S&W's longest-running and highest-selling model's history.
Seriously, order that S&W Standard Catalog book. Not expensive, and it's a great way to start learning about Smiths.
Denis
Dragline45
New member
glad it worked out for you, now lets see some pics!
Mike Irwin
Staff
"The re-finish is easy, to the best of my knowledge S&W did not produce any M&P in 1942 with a nickel finish."
As far as I know, Smith & Wesson produced VERY few nickeled K frames in 1940-1941, and produced NO nickeled K frames from mid 1941 to mid 1945.
The guns were pretty much unavailable on the civilian market during the war years and the military wasn't shelling out money for nickel plating.
As far as I know, Smith & Wesson produced VERY few nickeled K frames in 1940-1941, and produced NO nickeled K frames from mid 1941 to mid 1945.
The guns were pretty much unavailable on the civilian market during the war years and the military wasn't shelling out money for nickel plating.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Uhm...
I'm not arguing with you. I'm AGREEING with you and expanding on your answer.
Read my response again.
I'm not arguing with you. I'm AGREEING with you and expanding on your answer.
Read my response again.