Mike Irwin
Staff
Iirc they started using the v marking after they hit 1 million on the previous serial numbers. That was in mid to late 1942 I think.
Help Identifying this S&W .38
- Thread starter 8bit
- Start date
Thing is, the "SPECIAL" is outside of the symbols. And font style/size does not match. Pic below...
I see where you're coming from. And I don't feel I was "ripped off" either. Merely misled, whether intentionally or unintentionally (I suspect the latter). The bottom line is this was labeled and sold to me as a Model 10 and it is in fact not a Model 10 (even though that's what they eventually became in later years). If I had known the gun was that old and that parts were no longer produced I surely would not have purchased it.
Sure I as the buyer share some responsibility in this. But they knew I was new to guns and they can't expect everyone of their customers to be an expert anyway. Mislabeled is mislabeled. If I go into a reputable gun store and a gun is labeled as "Model X" but turns out to be "Model Y" or "Pre-Model X" then I think the LGS definitely is responsible for that discrepancy.
Also there seems to be an issue now as to whether this gun is even a .38 special at all. Very confused by the barrel markings. Yet the receipt says "Smith & Wesson Model 10 .38 S&W".
Again, I'm not looking to get over on the LGS or say I am 0% to blame. I just want them to make this right. I am a small business owner myself and if a customer ended up with the wrong product because of a misrepresentation on my end I'd surely make it right with them post-haste. I've dealt with 3 employees at this store. And all were super friendly. I'm going to go in there tomorrow and, as pleasant as possible, just explain the situation and see if I can get a refund. Or at the very least get a store credit refund and put it toward another gun.
The picture clearly shows that gun started life chambered for the 38 S&W cartridge. Someone has since rechambered it for the 38 Special cartridge.
Or, The barrel was changed out. There should be a matching serial number on the underside of the barrel close to where it attaches to the frame.
Jim
Or, The barrel was changed out. There should be a matching serial number on the underside of the barrel close to where it attaches to the frame.
Jim
The Special was obviously added later, which pretty much guarantees that it DID start out as a .38 S&W & was modified later, probably at the time the nickeling was done.
Not possible to say "never" with S&W, but I've not seen that marking on anything that could be attributed to Smith & Wesson directly.
The gun IS a rip, not in monetary value, but in what it was represented to be.
The store people represented it as a Model 10, which it isn't.
In my opinion they found a customer who didn't know anything at all about what he was getting & sold it to him knowing anybody who did know what they were doing wouldn't touch it.
The gun is modified in caliber & finish, and is not what it was stated to be.
They should be taking it back without question if they're a reputable concern, and if they don't they're simply not an honest business, regardless of the "All Sales Are Final" printing.
The Better Business Bureau really has no teeth, but it could be politely mentioned at the store that they'll be notified.
There may also be a small claims court process available locally where a claim for fraud could be filed, and the court WOULD have some teeth.
Generally, at least around here, a small claims action does not involve paying a lawyer, and this is a pretty simple issue to show.
Denis
Not possible to say "never" with S&W, but I've not seen that marking on anything that could be attributed to Smith & Wesson directly.
The gun IS a rip, not in monetary value, but in what it was represented to be.
The store people represented it as a Model 10, which it isn't.
In my opinion they found a customer who didn't know anything at all about what he was getting & sold it to him knowing anybody who did know what they were doing wouldn't touch it.
The gun is modified in caliber & finish, and is not what it was stated to be.
They should be taking it back without question if they're a reputable concern, and if they don't they're simply not an honest business, regardless of the "All Sales Are Final" printing.
The Better Business Bureau really has no teeth, but it could be politely mentioned at the store that they'll be notified.
There may also be a small claims court process available locally where a claim for fraud could be filed, and the court WOULD have some teeth.
Generally, at least around here, a small claims action does not involve paying a lawyer, and this is a pretty simple issue to show.
Denis
Thanks Jim. Serial numbers match.
So this is basically a Frankenstein gun then. If this were merely a refinished, rechambered gun I'd probably just live with my mistake and chalk it up to lesson learned. But throw in the fact that it's not even a Model 10 and I'm quite PO'd honestly.
They had to have known about the refinish. And the rechambering. And I'd say they likely knew that this was a pre-model and not an official "Model 10". That none of these facts were brought to my attention is pretty inexcusable IMO. I mean, I know they are trying to run a business and don't want to talk someone out of a purchase. But again, they knew I was a newb and it would've been nice to attempt to steer me away from a bad purchase. Or at least give me enough information to make an informed decision. At one point I was even comparing this gun to another blued (which I'm sure was original) Model 10, same price, and I asked the guy what he'd go with between the two and he simply said "can't go wrong with either".
I think they may have been using my naivety to get rid of this gun that most experienced gun owners probably never even take a second look at it. Sure I should've been better informed. But not pointing out a SINGLE issue that this gun had is sneaky, at best.
I'll see if they're willing to work with me tomorrow on a refund/replacement. If not and they're willing to lose a potential life-long customer who lives 1/4 mile from their store, then well, it is what it is I guess. I'll sell the gun for what I can and get something else.
I'll keep the small claims court avenue in mind. But I really feel like it won't be necessary (at least I HOPE). They were all very nice and certainly don't strike me as swindlers. I'd wager they were just trying to get out from under the gun and will respect where I'm coming from when I call them on it.
Again, if they're willing to lose a potential life-long customer over a $250 gun then that's up to them. I really hope it doesn't come to that.
2damnold4this
New member
Maybe they will have an actual Model Ten that they will swap you. I hope it works out.
Dragline45
New member
They should take it back. To me it's no different than buying a TV, getting home and realizing it's a different model than what they sold you. If they don't make it right tell them to expect to hear from you in small claims court.
They may have not, it's not the first time I have seen mislabeled used guns in stores. Since it's an older model and lacks the usual more modern model number, they may have just googled the gun based on the markings and saw the model 10 looks exactly like it and just assumed it was so. I may be wrong but I think the model 10 came in nickel, so they may have just assumed it was the original finish. Still they sold you something different that what it was advertised as, they should take it back.
They may have not, it's not the first time I have seen mislabeled used guns in stores. Since it's an older model and lacks the usual more modern model number, they may have just googled the gun based on the markings and saw the model 10 looks exactly like it and just assumed it was so. I may be wrong but I think the model 10 came in nickel, so they may have just assumed it was the original finish. Still they sold you something different that what it was advertised as, they should take it back.
It usually costs around $50 to file in small claims court and a lawyer will charge $150-200 an hour to even talk to you. If you just can't live with your purchase, try to work something out with the shop, using your future patronage as your most effective weapon.
There were tens of thousands of those .38 S&W guns reamed for .38 Special and they work just fine. When I was younger and dumber, I thought they could be dangerous, but having seen and fired a bunch of them I reached the conclusion that, except for a slight swelling of the case, it doesn't make any difference. The gun, after all, had been designed for the .38 Special in the first place; the change to .38 S&W was the wartime expedient.
Jim
There were tens of thousands of those .38 S&W guns reamed for .38 Special and they work just fine. When I was younger and dumber, I thought they could be dangerous, but having seen and fired a bunch of them I reached the conclusion that, except for a slight swelling of the case, it doesn't make any difference. The gun, after all, had been designed for the .38 Special in the first place; the change to .38 S&W was the wartime expedient.
Jim
Thanks. They did have a few more 10's. At least they were labeled as such. They had one other that was blue for the same sticker price as the gun I bought. Although it was in pretty rough shape. Then they had two more decent shape blues that were about $50 more.
Now that I know what to look for I will be more careful and not automatically trust the label.
Dragline45
New member
Typically in small claims court you don't need a lawyer. This seems like a pretty strait forward case, you would make your argument, the gun shop theirs, and the judge makes a decision based on your sides of the story, not much a lawyer could really do there. I think the gun shop will take it back, there was a post similar to this where someone thought they had a Colt Python but it was some other Colt model converted into a .38 target gun. The shop took back the gun and exchanged it.
8,
Go back over the info given here on the history of the Military & Police line, and the differences betwen your M&P and the real Model 10 that began in the 1950s.
The long action started to be dropped with the introduction of the short action in about 1947. There was a transition period using up older long action parts that lasted for a bit, so it's possible to find "new" M&Ps with long actions that were sold after 1947, but they would not have been marked Model 10.
By 1957, though, when the 10 was officially named the Model 10, ALL Model 10s would have used the short action.
Have all this in your mind, or take notes along with you, when you go so you can intelligently point out why your gun is not what they told you it was.
When you don't have a knowledge foundation (as you discovered) it can be hard to argue with a gunshop employee.
If they try to tell you it was re-finished by S&W or even that it's a factory original plating job, by the way, Smith & Wesson generally didn't also nickel-plate hammers & triggers.
Denis
And, NO lawyer has to be involved, as we mentioned. Small claims court was designed to be affordable.
Go back over the info given here on the history of the Military & Police line, and the differences betwen your M&P and the real Model 10 that began in the 1950s.
The long action started to be dropped with the introduction of the short action in about 1947. There was a transition period using up older long action parts that lasted for a bit, so it's possible to find "new" M&Ps with long actions that were sold after 1947, but they would not have been marked Model 10.
By 1957, though, when the 10 was officially named the Model 10, ALL Model 10s would have used the short action.
Have all this in your mind, or take notes along with you, when you go so you can intelligently point out why your gun is not what they told you it was.
When you don't have a knowledge foundation (as you discovered) it can be hard to argue with a gunshop employee.
If they try to tell you it was re-finished by S&W or even that it's a factory original plating job, by the way, Smith & Wesson generally didn't also nickel-plate hammers & triggers.
Denis
And, NO lawyer has to be involved, as we mentioned. Small claims court was designed to be affordable.
I'm not sure if a lawyer is necessary for small claims around here or not. If so then that route certainly wouldn't be an option.
If they flat out refuse to refund/replace then I will likely just sell the gun for what I can get and they will lose my business forever. I hope they have more business sense than to let it come to that though. And I really don't want that to happen either as they have the best selection and prices of all the LGS in my area. But you can always find what you want online so I'll live.
I don't doubt that it shoots well and is reliable. But I wanted this to be my main HD gun. So the hammer safety issue is a pretty big concern since my wife could potentially have to handle it in a stressful situation. And the fact that the parts are no longer produced is concerning as well. Because of these issues I really have no desire to keep it.
If home defense, you do not want that gun.
As a curio or range toy, understanding what it is, you might decide to keep it. But to bet your life on it would be very ill-advised.
You never know the quality of workmanship that went into those caliber conversions, and it could very easily cease to function just when you really need it.
Also remember- you don't know why the previous owner sold it. It could already be exhibiting problems.
Denis
As a curio or range toy, understanding what it is, you might decide to keep it. But to bet your life on it would be very ill-advised.
You never know the quality of workmanship that went into those caliber conversions, and it could very easily cease to function just when you really need it.
Also remember- you don't know why the previous owner sold it. It could already be exhibiting problems.
Denis
At the risk of confusing you further, there are two Model 10 actions, both are variations of the short action.
The older 10s had their firing pin (called a hammer nose by S&W) on the hammer, as your M&P does & as Smith revolvers had for a hundred years. Roughly 10 or 12 years back, S&W changed the design again, moving the firing pin off the hammer and locating it in the frame.
They did the same change across most of their revolver models.
Current guns have the frame-mounted firing pin.
All M&P derivatives (all K-frame Smiths, as yours & the Model 10's are) using the short action have had the hammer block (BLOCK, not LOCK) as part of the design.
If you buy a Model 10 marked as such (stamped Mod 10, Mod 10-1, Mod 10-4, or whatever on the frame in front of the cylinder viewed with the cylinder open), it SHOULD have the block. The factory shipped it that way, but I say SHOULD because some owners remove the block thinking it helps the trigger pull.
Other changes between the original Model 10 & the current Model 10 are a switch to a different method of producing parts in the new ones (Metal Injection Molding as opposed to forgings in the older guns), and the addition of an internal key LOCK.
I'd avoid a sample that has that lock, it has been documented to activate itself in some new Smiths. You can tell if it has an internal lock if it has a small round keyhole just above the cylinder latch thumbpiece.
Chances are statistically in your favor that the lock won't activate itself, but I won't bet my life on it. Your choice. Others don't care.
A Model 10 in good shape is a fine choice for home defense. Using a good bullet, it's reliable, simple, easy to run, recoil's tolerable for most (should be OK for your wife), and it's harder to shoot yourself in the foot in general than an autoloader.
I carried its cousin, a Model 15 (adjustable sights), in the Air Force and a Model 64 (stainless version) on duty as a cop for several years.
Still have the 64.
A good basic dependable & simple Model 10 has done the job for countless cops & regular everyday people from coast to coast for a hell of a long time.
Denis
The older 10s had their firing pin (called a hammer nose by S&W) on the hammer, as your M&P does & as Smith revolvers had for a hundred years. Roughly 10 or 12 years back, S&W changed the design again, moving the firing pin off the hammer and locating it in the frame.
They did the same change across most of their revolver models.
Current guns have the frame-mounted firing pin.
All M&P derivatives (all K-frame Smiths, as yours & the Model 10's are) using the short action have had the hammer block (BLOCK, not LOCK) as part of the design.
If you buy a Model 10 marked as such (stamped Mod 10, Mod 10-1, Mod 10-4, or whatever on the frame in front of the cylinder viewed with the cylinder open), it SHOULD have the block. The factory shipped it that way, but I say SHOULD because some owners remove the block thinking it helps the trigger pull.
Other changes between the original Model 10 & the current Model 10 are a switch to a different method of producing parts in the new ones (Metal Injection Molding as opposed to forgings in the older guns), and the addition of an internal key LOCK.
I'd avoid a sample that has that lock, it has been documented to activate itself in some new Smiths. You can tell if it has an internal lock if it has a small round keyhole just above the cylinder latch thumbpiece.
Chances are statistically in your favor that the lock won't activate itself, but I won't bet my life on it. Your choice. Others don't care.
A Model 10 in good shape is a fine choice for home defense. Using a good bullet, it's reliable, simple, easy to run, recoil's tolerable for most (should be OK for your wife), and it's harder to shoot yourself in the foot in general than an autoloader.
I carried its cousin, a Model 15 (adjustable sights), in the Air Force and a Model 64 (stainless version) on duty as a cop for several years.
Still have the 64.
A good basic dependable & simple Model 10 has done the job for countless cops & regular everyday people from coast to coast for a hell of a long time.
Denis
Mike Irwin
Staff
The change to. 38 S&W was most definitely not a wartime expediency.
The company supplied over one million of these to Britain in .380 revolver. That was the Brit name for the .38 S&W.
The US government took some in that chambering, but most purchased by the US were in .38 Special.
It is possible but not likely that the proper cylinder was fitted instead of the original chamber being reamed. Only some careful micrometer measurements of the chambers would tell for certain.
The company supplied over one million of these to Britain in .380 revolver. That was the Brit name for the .38 S&W.
The US government took some in that chambering, but most purchased by the US were in .38 Special.
It is possible but not likely that the proper cylinder was fitted instead of the original chamber being reamed. Only some careful micrometer measurements of the chambers would tell for certain.
Denis,
So just to be clear, how do I determine whether a particular gun has the hammer block? If the firing pin is mounted on the frame? Or does that have nothing to do with it?
I was aware of the internal locks on the newer models. That's actually what turned me off of purchasing a new 638 snub. But thanks for mentioning it. You can't assume I know anything.
Thanks for all your help and input.
So just to be clear, how do I determine whether a particular gun has the hammer block? If the firing pin is mounted on the frame? Or does that have nothing to do with it?
I was aware of the internal locks on the newer models. That's actually what turned me off of purchasing a new 638 snub. But thanks for mentioning it. You can't assume I know anything.
Thanks for all your help and input.
No, I tried to explain as clearly as I could above.
I'll try again.
Unless it has been removed AFTER it left the factory by a SUBSEQUENT OWNER, ALL MODEL 10S WILL HAVE THE INTERNAL HAMMER BLOCK PART.
If the gun was made in 1957 or after, it SHOULD have the hammer block, regardless of where the firing pin is.
There are other Smiths that currently do not have the hammer block, but that wanders far from your subject at hand & only applies to certain specific small-framed models.
I'm trying not to let this wander too far & confuse you too much.
ANY MODEL 10 with a short action so marked & built after 1956 should have the block. It's a small stamped piece of steel that slides up & down as the gun is used.
It's visible from the outside if you look down between the cocked hammer & frame (appears as a small flat crossbar just below the firing pin channel in older 10s & just below the firing pin in current 10s), but you may not be able to determine it yourself.
If you trade & if you think you trust the counter guy enough to ask, have him point it out to you. If he gives you a blank look, try for another counter guy.
The other way is to remove the sideplate, and while that's easy to do if you know how, it CAN bugger the plate up if you don't.
After you trade, if you have questions on how to do that yourself, come on back & we can get you through it.
Denis
I'll try again.
Unless it has been removed AFTER it left the factory by a SUBSEQUENT OWNER, ALL MODEL 10S WILL HAVE THE INTERNAL HAMMER BLOCK PART.
If the gun was made in 1957 or after, it SHOULD have the hammer block, regardless of where the firing pin is.
There are other Smiths that currently do not have the hammer block, but that wanders far from your subject at hand & only applies to certain specific small-framed models.
I'm trying not to let this wander too far & confuse you too much.
ANY MODEL 10 with a short action so marked & built after 1956 should have the block. It's a small stamped piece of steel that slides up & down as the gun is used.
It's visible from the outside if you look down between the cocked hammer & frame (appears as a small flat crossbar just below the firing pin channel in older 10s & just below the firing pin in current 10s), but you may not be able to determine it yourself.
If you trade & if you think you trust the counter guy enough to ask, have him point it out to you. If he gives you a blank look, try for another counter guy.
The other way is to remove the sideplate, and while that's easy to do if you know how, it CAN bugger the plate up if you don't.
After you trade, if you have questions on how to do that yourself, come on back & we can get you through it.
Denis