Help Identifying this S&W .38

8

8bit

New member
Hello all,

New to the forum and fairly new to guns in general. Anyway, I picked up this S&W .38 Special today. It was sold to me as a Model 10 and I'm just trying to verify (a) that's actually what it is, and (b) roughly when it was manufactured. Google has failed me.

It does not say Model 10 anywhere on it. The only text markings at all (aside from the S&W trademark logo and Made in USA) are:

- "Smith & Wesson" on one side of the barrel
- "38 S.&W. CTG SPECIAL" on the other side of the barrel
- "971XXX" on the bottom of the butt & bottom of barrel
- When you drop the cylinder a large "6" is visible with "5198" in smaller numbers underneath.

Pics attached (sorry for the low quality).

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

1zx31hu.jpg

dcysw.jpg
 
None will say "Model 10".
Your gun isn't one, it appears to be a "pre-Model 10" M&P variant from prior to 1950, on my screen. Clearer photos could help.
It's been nickled & unless it was done at the factory, that reduced its value.

Somebody else will probably be along to give you more specific info.
Denis
 
It's a 38 Military & Police. The serial number, 971xxx, dates it to 1942.
The nickel plating is not original as the trigger, hammer and ejector star should be color case hardened, not nickel also.
The grips are not original either.

These became model 10's when S&W began assigning model numbers around 1957.

Jim
 
Thank you Denis and Jim. Very helpful.

I did not realize it was refinished (as I said, I'm pretty new to guns). Luckily, I'm not very concerned with value. This is my first revolver so I was just looking for something low budget to shoot. Ended up paying $250+tax. Does that sound about right for a gun like this or did I pay too much?

The finish isn't too big of a deal to me. I am slightly miffed that the store sold this to me as a Model 10 though. Or is it normal to call these "pre-model 10's" model 10's? I probably wouldn't have bought it if I knew about it's age PLUS the refinish.
 
$250 isn't too bad, if you're happy.
It's just not original & the value suffers for it.

The Model Numbering System started in 1957.
That's when the M&P became the Model 10.
No, it's not right to call it a Model 10 in the interests of strict accuracy, but it's largely the same gun. Same frame, less modern lockwork.
Denis
 
Technically it IS a model 10...Well....actually the Model 10 is technically a Military and Police. Smith used names like M&P or frame size/caliber designations up until the assigning of model numbers in the 1950s.

So the M&P, K-.38 & Model 10 really ARE the same gun, just with different markings and manufacture dates. What did change over the years was the way the steel was heat treated. These pre-1980s "pinned barrel" K-frame .38s are NOT recommended for use with any load labeled as +P. While they won't blow the gun up on the first shot, such loads will loosen things up in short order.

Stick to standard pressure ammo and enjoy a great shooter that will still serve well should you need to defend yourself or your family.
 
I will get this in before someone else does. Those M&P's do not have a positive hammer block safety; they have one, but it depends on a spring to operate and can fail, even though it is not too likely. Still, if carrying the gun, it is best to keep an empty chamber under the hammer just to be super safe.

Jim
 
James, been busy, you beat me to it. :)

8,
Technically, your gun can be considered a developmental ancestor of the Model 10.

You have the WWII version of the long-running M&P revolver series that caused a Navy sailor's death when he dropped it on deck, as the legend goes, and it fired because the design didn't include a sufficiently strong "anti-drop" feature internally to keep it from firing when it landed on the hammer behind a loaded chamber.

Beginning in the late 1940s, the modern sliding hammer block was incorporated into the design to prevent this, among other changes.
Your Smith CAN potentially fire if dropped with a round in front of the hammer, as James mentioned it's best not to carry it fully loaded.
Denis
 
Actually, it WAS a Model 10, but no one knew it.

Prior to 1957, when the model numbers were rolled out to the public, the company referred to them internally by the two-digit model numbers. It was how they kept track of inventory.

To the public it was the Military & Police Hand Ejector.

To the company, it was the Military & Police Hand Ejector (10).

Why Smith waited so long to start using the model numbers is anyone's guess.
 
Thanks everyone. Some really good info here. I really appreciate it. The hammer safety issue is especially good to know. I don't plan on using this for carry, just HD/range firing. But I will try to keep that issue in the forefront of my mind whenever handling the gun regardless.
 
8,
This may be getting confusing for you, but on further reflection it's important you understand what you do have, and the distinction between it and what people normally refer to as a Model 10.

The Model 10 is the current iteration of a long succession of what Smith & Wesson called their Military & Police .38-caliber revolver line dating back to 1899.
There have been many changes to it over the past 100+ years.

The reason you need to know the difference between your gun & a true Model 10 is that yours is an older gun than any "real" Model 10, and besides not having the hammer block (safety issue) it also does not have the same action as a Model 10.

Your gun has what's called a "long" action which was phased out in favor of the "short" action that S&W was using by 1957 when the Model 10 got its official model number.

What that means is that besides your gun being unsafe to carry fully loaded (if you want to carry it), critical parts such as hammers & triggers have not been made for your gun for several decades (a service & repair issue).

Smith & Wesson doesn't have those & can't service your gun if something major wears out or breaks.
You can't call S&W and order "Model 10" parts & expect them to fit your gun. You can't jump on the Internet & chase down "Model 10" parts and expect them to fit your gun. They won't.

Old parts are still floating around, but they're drying up & your local S&W gunsmith may or may not have what you need if you do shoot the gun enough to get to that point.

Since it has an outside-the-factory nickel job on it, no telling what may have been done to the insides along the way, and it could possibly need repairs sooner than later.

I mention all this because you're "fairly new to guns in general" & you should know there may be an unpleasant surprise if you take your gun in for repairs or call S&W on it down the road.

Those were classic Smiths, and I'm not suggesting you let it go, necessarily, if you're happy with it.
Just be informed, and in my opinion if it was represented to you as a Model 10, it was MIS-represented & that'd be grounds for a refund where I live.
Denis
 
I mention all this because you're "fairly new to guns in general" & you should know there may be an unpleasant surprise if you take your gun in for repairs or call S&W on it down the road.

Those were classic Smiths, and I'm not suggesting you let it go, necessarily, if you're happy with it.
Just be informed, and in my opinion if it was represented to you as a Model 10, it was MIS-represented & that'd be grounds for a refund where I live.
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Appreciate the info. It was definitely represented as a Model 10. Said so on the tag. Says so on my receipt/papers given upon purchase. Also on the receipt it says "All Gun Sales Are Final". But I'm thinking since it was sold as something that it it really isn't (at least "officially"), I might have a case. I think I'll go by there on Monday and just be as friendly as possible about it and see if I could return it and put the credit toward another purchase. The parts availability issue concerns me much more than the refinish or the hammer safety problem. I'd rather spend a little more for that peace of mind.

The staff at this particular store all seemed very nice. They in no way pushed this particular gun on me. However, they were well aware that I was somewhat of a newb and now I'm thinking they might've held their tongue a bit and saw this as an opportunity to unload a piece that had probably been sitting there awhile. Hopefully they'll be understanding and work with me.
 
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If you do go back to the shop, you know enough now to argue your point.
They definitely did not sell you a Model 10.
Good luck.
Denis
 
STOP STOP STOP
You do not have a 38 Special.
You have a 38 S&W, This is a different cartridge than the 38 SPL.

The .38 S&W is a revolver cartridge developed by Smith & Wesson in 1877. Though similar in name, it is not interchangeable with the later .38 Smith and Wesson Special due to a different case shape and slightly larger bullet diameter.

So they misrepresented the gun. The also lead you to believe you have a different cartridge (38 Spl). Shooting a 38 special in this pistol will very possibily damage/destroy the gun and maim or kill you or someone.

I don't want to be nasty, but if the gun store does not make this right, if what you say is on the paper work is correct and reflects a model 10 38 Special cartridge, my next call would be the ATF, then the state AG fraud division. Then the local BBB.

No matter what they do, do not, do not, surrender the original paperwork to them. Make copies and show them the originals and let them handle the copies so no boo-boo's occur and the paperwork is " destroyed."
 
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The Op said the barrel was marked "38 S.&W. CTG SPECIAL"

Mine is marked 38 S&W SPECIAL CTG. I wonder if the Op got the letters out of order or if it has different markings.
 
Hum...

A couple of people have raised a very interesting point about the cartridge marking.

8bit, examine the gun VERY closely.

Does it say on it anywhere "Parker and Hale" or "Cogsworth and Harrison"?

If so, your gun started out life as a .38 S&W (different from the .38 Special) bound for the British military during World War II.

After the war, many of these guns were brought back into the country and were haphazzardly rechambered for .38 Special by boring out the cylinder.

Typically, when this was done, the .38 Special brass would then swell at the base upon firing.

Overall you do have a good, solid Smith & Wesson, but it may or may not be exactly what you wanted.


Where are you located?
 
The Op said the barrel was marked "38 S.&W. CTG SPECIAL"

Mine is marked 38 S&W SPECIAL CTG. I wonder if the Op got the letters out of order or if it has different markings.
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That is how it is engraved on the barrel.... "*38 S.&W. CTG* SPECIAL" (except there are symbols instead of the *s.


8bit, examine the gun VERY closely.

Does it say on it anywhere "Parker and Hale" or "Cogsworth and Harrison"?

If so, your gun started out life as a .38 S&W (different from the .38 Special) bound for the British military during World War II.

After the war, many of these guns were brought back into the country and were haphazzardly rechambered for .38 Special by boring out the cylinder.

Typically, when this was done, the .38 Special brass would then swell at the base upon firing.

Overall you do have a good, solid Smith & Wesson, but it may or may not be exactly what you wanted.


Where are you located?
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I do not see Parker and Hale or Cogsworth and Harrison anywhere on it. I am located in Tennessee.

I don't want to be nasty, but if the gun store does not make this right, if what you say is on the paper work is correct and reflects a model 10 38 Special cartridge, my next call would be the ATF, then the state AG fraud division. Then the local BBB.

No matter what they do, do not, do not, surrender the original paperwork to them. Make copies and show them the originals and let them handle the copies so no boo-boo's occur and the paperwork is " destroyed."
Click to expand...
The paper work does in fact say "Model 10" but it does also say ".38 S&W" not ".38 Special". I honestly can't remember what the tag itself said and they removed that upon purchase. I do however know that I specifically told the guy I was looking for .38 Specials and this is one of the ones he showed me.

So could the word "Special" on the barrel just mean special edition or something?
 
No, if the barrel marking has "Special" in it that means .38 Special.

As it happens, I've been acquiring parts for a wartime M&P recently & the spare barrel, unfitted & NOS, I have here is marked 38 S&W CTG, with a symbol at each end. This is obviously for a lend-lease gun, not all WWII M&P production was .38 Smith & Wesson.
If Special is a part of your rollmark & it matches the rest in font & type & case, you do have a .38 Special that began & ended a .38 Special.

With a symbol at each end, it sounds like a factory marking to me, as opposed to a re-mark on a .38 S&W gun re-chambered later to .38 Special, as many were.
Denis
 
I may be mistaken but if it were produced in 1942 wouldn't that mean it would have a V prefix in front of the serial number making it a Victory model whose production ran for the military from 1942-1944
 
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