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Hell Has Frozen Over: The NRA and Brady Campaign Decide to Agree!
- Thread starter LanceOregon
- Start date
Sigma 40 Blaster
New member
I agree that the concept is good but it's application is bad. I'd like to see that done at a state level...but do state prisons have "extra room" for actually enforcing laws? Do Federal prisons for that matter?
I'm not all for giving the federal government extra power but I think in this instance the federal government might be better funded and have more resources to deal with the extra work that would come from this.
Ultimately I don't want any extra taxes, just better use of the existing state sales tax and federal taxes I already pay.
I'm not all for giving the federal government extra power but I think in this instance the federal government might be better funded and have more resources to deal with the extra work that would come from this.
Ultimately I don't want any extra taxes, just better use of the existing state sales tax and federal taxes I already pay.
Sigma 40 Blaster posted:
Remember when the Clinton Admin raised taxes and put a lot of extra money into "100K" more cops on the street? That sounded good, but the funding only lasted for a short while and the funding did not have to be used for hiring more cops. Some agencies bought new computers and squad cars for their existing force. Some knew they could not fund more cops beyond the few years that the Feds would provide the money. This would have forced the locals to either raise taxes or lay off some of the newly hired officers.
But Sigma 40 Blaster puts his thumb on a bigger issue. What good is it to have more cops to arrest more bad guys if we don't have places to put the bad guys. Maybe that money should have been spent on building more prison and jail space to hold violent criminals. With more of the violent criminals off of the streets, maybe the LEO agencies wouldn't have needed more cops. It's never as easy as national politicians make it sound when they come and ask the taxpayers for more money. They tell us all how it will benefit us, but somehow, the actual, realized, benefits seem very minimal, if they materialize at all.
I agree that the concept is good but it's application is bad. I'd like to see that done at a state level...but do state prisons have "extra room" for actually enforcing laws? Do Federal prisons for that matter?
I'm not all for giving the federal government extra power but I think in this instance the federal government might be better funded and have more resources to deal with the extra work that would come from this.
Ultimately I don't want any extra taxes, just better use of the existing state sales tax and federal taxes I already pay.
Remember when the Clinton Admin raised taxes and put a lot of extra money into "100K" more cops on the street? That sounded good, but the funding only lasted for a short while and the funding did not have to be used for hiring more cops. Some agencies bought new computers and squad cars for their existing force. Some knew they could not fund more cops beyond the few years that the Feds would provide the money. This would have forced the locals to either raise taxes or lay off some of the newly hired officers.
But Sigma 40 Blaster puts his thumb on a bigger issue. What good is it to have more cops to arrest more bad guys if we don't have places to put the bad guys. Maybe that money should have been spent on building more prison and jail space to hold violent criminals. With more of the violent criminals off of the streets, maybe the LEO agencies wouldn't have needed more cops. It's never as easy as national politicians make it sound when they come and ask the taxpayers for more money. They tell us all how it will benefit us, but somehow, the actual, realized, benefits seem very minimal, if they materialize at all.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
I have some pretty good knowledge of the way things work in the VA US Attorney's offices, and I can assure you that they're not taking penny-ante cases like the shotgun barrel that's 1/4 inch too short. They're already swamped with cases and they only go to trial on the serious ones and/or the ones that don't plead out--and the US Attorney typically offers very generous plea deals to first-time offenders.
Like I said, I think the tool is being used well at the moment; but it definitely has that potential for abuse. That is one of the issues I have with Exile. It is a very broad tool and how well it is used is going to depend on lot on the integrity (and the political views) of the U.S. Attorney using it.
One of the reasons Exile has been successful has been because VA has enough serious crime it doesn't have to look for places to spend the money. However, when you export that program nationwide, you are going to run into places that aren't seeing VA levels of crime and have a budget grant to arrest and prosecute people guilty of federal firearms crimes. When I look at some of the more dubious ATF cases of the past 10 years, I wonder how much that drives some of them.
Mr. Roberts, I agree with you. Money and budgets set up to do "certain things" by the government is almost a guarantee that more of those "certain things" will be done. Why? Because then, next year, they'll be able to ask for even more money, and the kingdom building begins.
Government, by its very nature, always tries to expand its power and grow. History has shown us this time and time again. When was the last time a politician or beauricrat came out for lessening the role of government in our lives? Reagan was about the only one I can remember, but even he wasn't successful at shrinking government.
One of the few things I agreed with our former "wrassler" governor in Minnesota on, was his saying, "follow the money". Jesse Ventura was tuned into uncovering where government corruption was most likely to occur by focusing on who was getting the most money or who was growing their budget the fastest. That is a key indicator that somewhere along the line, that department is, or is going to get, too powerful. That presents a situation that is ripe for corruption and/or abuse.
Government, by its very nature, always tries to expand its power and grow. History has shown us this time and time again. When was the last time a politician or beauricrat came out for lessening the role of government in our lives? Reagan was about the only one I can remember, but even he wasn't successful at shrinking government.
One of the few things I agreed with our former "wrassler" governor in Minnesota on, was his saying, "follow the money". Jesse Ventura was tuned into uncovering where government corruption was most likely to occur by focusing on who was getting the most money or who was growing their budget the fastest. That is a key indicator that somewhere along the line, that department is, or is going to get, too powerful. That presents a situation that is ripe for corruption and/or abuse.
Now you may ask: What is this top secret formula that Richmond has come up with? Well, nothing less than enforcing existing gun laws and vigorously prosecuting the criminals!! They have found that doing that actually reduces violent crime!!
Enforce existing laws...that's just crazy!...who comes up with this stuff.....next thing you know they'll arrest crack heads.
www.dcjs.virginia.gov/exile
There is the site for anyone who would like the facts.
Three things are listed:
Virginia Exile is the Commonwealth's tough program which carries bail restrictions and imposes a mandatory minimum sentence of five years in a Virginia prison for those who:
- have a prior conviction for a violent felony and are convicted of possessing a firearm;
- are convicted of possessing a firearm on school property with the intent to use it, or displaying it in a threatening manner;
- are convicted of possessing a firearm and Schedule I or II drugs such as cocaine or heroin, or convicted of possessing more than a pound of marijuana with the intent to sell.
_____________
Go back and read the end of the last one. A POUND OF POT WITH INTENT TO SELL.
They aren't after the little guys.
John
There is the site for anyone who would like the facts.
Three things are listed:
Virginia Exile is the Commonwealth's tough program which carries bail restrictions and imposes a mandatory minimum sentence of five years in a Virginia prison for those who:
- have a prior conviction for a violent felony and are convicted of possessing a firearm;
- are convicted of possessing a firearm on school property with the intent to use it, or displaying it in a threatening manner;
- are convicted of possessing a firearm and Schedule I or II drugs such as cocaine or heroin, or convicted of possessing more than a pound of marijuana with the intent to sell.
_____________
Go back and read the end of the last one. A POUND OF POT WITH INTENT TO SELL.
They aren't after the little guys.
John
This was a key component of the so-called "Boston Miracle." The Boston Police agreed to focus on the key criminal actors and told them that if they did gun crimes they'd go away for 10+ years. The Suffolk County DA agreed to turn over the cases to the US Attorney. The US Attorney agreed to quickly prosecute the federal gun crimes. The local ministers agreed to work with the gang bangers who wanted a way out.
Boston has since lost its way, but crime dropped greatly while this was in place.
Boston has since lost its way, but crime dropped greatly while this was in place.
Boston? You mean my federal tax dollars are going to prop up a justice system full of gungrabbers? Another reason I don't like it when the feds get into the local law enforcement business.
Like Virginia, Boston should have paid for its own justice system, not tapped into my wallet for it. Tough prison sentences are fine, but the beneficiaries should be the ones paying and the authority and responsibility should stay closer to home, at the state or local level. Sending the bill out to the rest of the states is wrong, and jurisdictions on the federal dole should be cut off.
Having hundreds of millions of Americans available to foot the bill for Richmond's and Boston's problems sure does make everything seem easy, and now comes the call to expand the program nationwide. Guess what? When hundreds of millions of us are paying for federal law enforcement not for a few million, but for the nation, things won't seem so rosy. When President Obama appoints AG Superlib and the stream of silly policies ensue, giving all this power and responsibility to the feds won't seem like such a great idea.
Like Virginia, Boston should have paid for its own justice system, not tapped into my wallet for it. Tough prison sentences are fine, but the beneficiaries should be the ones paying and the authority and responsibility should stay closer to home, at the state or local level. Sending the bill out to the rest of the states is wrong, and jurisdictions on the federal dole should be cut off.
Having hundreds of millions of Americans available to foot the bill for Richmond's and Boston's problems sure does make everything seem easy, and now comes the call to expand the program nationwide. Guess what? When hundreds of millions of us are paying for federal law enforcement not for a few million, but for the nation, things won't seem so rosy. When President Obama appoints AG Superlib and the stream of silly policies ensue, giving all this power and responsibility to the feds won't seem like such a great idea.
That's more like it! The site says it's a state program, founded because the federal program worked.johnbt said:www.dcjs.virginia.gov/exile
There is the site for anyone who would like the facts.
It's unsurprising that a policy of locking up bad actors with guns for a long time using someone else's money will work well. Now they're trying it with their own money, and I say more power to them.
Publius: the reality is that 10 years in a federal prison far from home is a far bigger deterrent than a couple years in state prison where the perp is hanging out with his homies.Like Virginia, Boston should have paid for its own justice system, not tapped into my wallet for it. Tough prison sentences are fine, but the beneficiaries should be the ones paying and the authority and responsibility should stay closer to home, at the state or local level. Sending the bill out to the rest of the states is wrong, and jurisdictions on the federal dole should be cut off.
That's one reality among many. Others include the reality that he who pays the piper calls the tune, and while the federal policy this time around makes sense, they can also impose policies that don't. The reality is kicking all the cases upstairs nationwide will cost a TON of federal dollars, just as it would cost a ton of state dollars to incarcerate people for the same length of time. The reality is, state and local officials can blame failed federal policies for their own failures. The reality is, we have a balance of powers between state and federal governments for a reason, and transferring more jobs to the federal level upsets that balance.
"The reality is kicking all the cases upstairs nationwide will cost a TON of federal dollars"
But all the cases don't get transferred. They only bother with the hard-case crooks with multiple felonies, etc.
Here's the first thing google turned up.
From www.dcjs.virginia.gov/research/documents/exileFinal.pdf
Period covered: 1/00 to 6/02
Places: 10 program sites in Virginia (large cities and counties)
646 Virginia Exile cases resulted in ONLY 172 cases being transferred to federal jurisdiction.
It doesn't appear we've been busting the budget with this, does it?
To summarize, that was 172 cases in TWO AND A HALF YEARS.
John
But all the cases don't get transferred. They only bother with the hard-case crooks with multiple felonies, etc.
Here's the first thing google turned up.
From www.dcjs.virginia.gov/research/documents/exileFinal.pdf
Period covered: 1/00 to 6/02
Places: 10 program sites in Virginia (large cities and counties)
646 Virginia Exile cases resulted in ONLY 172 cases being transferred to federal jurisdiction.
It doesn't appear we've been busting the budget with this, does it?
To summarize, that was 172 cases in TWO AND A HALF YEARS.
John
Playboypenguin
Moderator
Well then, Farmer Joe better be sure what the law is before he goes and shortens his shotgun. He surely isn't going to have bought it that way.The downside is that ol' Farmer Joe with a shotgun that is a 1/4" too short is a lot easier target than the criminal gang selling drugs on the corner street. Not only is he unlikely to resist violently, he isn't going to be as legally savvy either.
Your assertion that they were kicking all the cases upstairs is completely false. Stop misrepresenting the program.The reality is kicking all the cases upstairs nationwide will cost a TON of federal dollars,
jbt and M1911,
I did not mean to imply that every case is being kicked upstairs. Sorry for my poor use of language. My complaint was about expanding the program nationwide. If there were "only" 172 in Virginia, how many would there be if the program were expanded nationwide, as is being suggested?
I still think "only" 172 cases of transferring power and responsibility that belongs in the states up to the feds is 172 too many. The logic appears to be that decision-making and efficiency are better at the federal level. Is that the logic here, or am I missing something?
I did not mean to imply that every case is being kicked upstairs. Sorry for my poor use of language. My complaint was about expanding the program nationwide. If there were "only" 172 in Virginia, how many would there be if the program were expanded nationwide, as is being suggested?
I still think "only" 172 cases of transferring power and responsibility that belongs in the states up to the feds is 172 too many. The logic appears to be that decision-making and efficiency are better at the federal level. Is that the logic here, or am I missing something?