Stevie-Ray
New member
You are correct, John. At Fort Michilimackinac, when they demonstrate a cannon, they tell you, "Put your hands over your ears or open your mouth, but don't do both."
Hearing protection vs. hearing damage
- Thread starter PinnedAndRecessed
- Start date
I'm new here and this is my first post, so be nice, guys, and don't jump down my throat if I say something dumb. 
I was reading this thread with great interest, as I certainly want to protect my hearing. I'm basically a novice shooter (at 50 years of age!). I read the debate about whether wearing both ear muffs and ear plugs provides an additive decibel reduction or not. Somebody mentioned a rule of thumb that the overall db reduction is 5 db more than the db reduction provided by the better of the two devices. So, if the muffs give 26 db reduction and the plugs give 25 db reduction, the total reduction would be 26+5=31 db. That sounded crazy to me, so I did a little nosing around and found somebody who has studied it and published a paper about it. I don't have the full paper, but here's the abstract:
Author: Alberto Behara
Ontario Hydro, 757 McKay Road, Pickering, Ontario, Canada L1W 3C8
Abstract
It is generally accepted that the total attenuation, when wearing a muff on top of a plug, is 5 dB higher than the highest of the individual attenuations of each of the protectors. A recent paper by A. Damongeoet et al., Appl. Acoust., 28 (1989) 169-75, lists results from 32 laboratory measurements of attenuations resulting from wearing simultaneously a muff and a plug, performed at five different laboratories. The resulting mean attenuation of the database was 7 dB. However, individual attenuation values ranged from 0·6 to 12 dB, defying the validity of the 5 dB rule. In this paper several attempts for a general rule for predicting the combined attenuation have been postulated, none with success. The conclusion is that a combination of protectors should not be worn unless the resulting attenuation is known.
So it seems that it is not a simple matter to determine the overall sound reduction of both muffs and plugs. But as far as I'm concerned, using both has to be better than using only one.
I was reading this thread with great interest, as I certainly want to protect my hearing. I'm basically a novice shooter (at 50 years of age!). I read the debate about whether wearing both ear muffs and ear plugs provides an additive decibel reduction or not. Somebody mentioned a rule of thumb that the overall db reduction is 5 db more than the db reduction provided by the better of the two devices. So, if the muffs give 26 db reduction and the plugs give 25 db reduction, the total reduction would be 26+5=31 db. That sounded crazy to me, so I did a little nosing around and found somebody who has studied it and published a paper about it. I don't have the full paper, but here's the abstract:
Author: Alberto Behara
Ontario Hydro, 757 McKay Road, Pickering, Ontario, Canada L1W 3C8
Abstract
It is generally accepted that the total attenuation, when wearing a muff on top of a plug, is 5 dB higher than the highest of the individual attenuations of each of the protectors. A recent paper by A. Damongeoet et al., Appl. Acoust., 28 (1989) 169-75, lists results from 32 laboratory measurements of attenuations resulting from wearing simultaneously a muff and a plug, performed at five different laboratories. The resulting mean attenuation of the database was 7 dB. However, individual attenuation values ranged from 0·6 to 12 dB, defying the validity of the 5 dB rule. In this paper several attempts for a general rule for predicting the combined attenuation have been postulated, none with success. The conclusion is that a combination of protectors should not be worn unless the resulting attenuation is known.
So it seems that it is not a simple matter to determine the overall sound reduction of both muffs and plugs. But as far as I'm concerned, using both has to be better than using only one.
NIOSH - Information for Hunters and Shooters
http://www2a.cdc.gov/hp-devices/huntershooters.html
In most cases, the sound level from firing a weapon is sufficient to require the use of hearing protection, even if the weapon is fired only one time. Recent NIOSH studies of sound levels from weapons fires have shown that they may range from a low of 144 dB SPL for small caliber weapons such as a 0.22 caliber rifle to as high as a 172 dB SPL for a 0.357 caliber revolver.
Consequently, NIOSH recommends that hunters and shooters use double hearing protection each and every time a weapon is fired. Double protection involves wearing both earplugs and earmuffs. The best combination is a deeply inserted foam earplug and a well-seated earmuff.
NIOSH examined the performance of several types of hearing protectors with a variety of weapons. Earplugs were able to reduce the peak sound pressure level by 10 to 30 decibels and earmuffs yielded 20 to 38 decibels of peak reduction. Active level-dependent earmuffs were found to react sufficiently fast to provide the same protection level as when they were turned off [Murphy and Little (2002) J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 111:2336; Franks and Murphy, (2002). J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 112:2294]. The effect of volume gain setting was minimal for active level-dependent devices (see Figure 1). Each protector was tested with the volume set for unity gain, maximum gain or turned off. At unity gain the sound under the protector is as loud as when no protector is worn. The peak reduction was mostly unaffected by the change in the volume setting.
The formula for determining the maximum number of shots is:
10(140-pldB)/10
where pldB is the peak level of the sound in the ear canal under the earmuff and earplug. NIOSH recommends that peak exposures be limited to one event not exceeding a peak level of 140 dB SPL. That is, exposure to one event of 140 dB SPL would constitute 100% of a persons’s noise burden.
As shown in Figure 2, the amount of reduction for 12-gauge shotgun using the David Clark Model 27 earmuff is 31 dB, reducing the peak level from 161(red line) to 130 dB SPL( blue line). So, with the earmuff alone, the number of shots recommended by NIOSH would be five per 24-hour period. The addition of a deeply inserted foam earplug reduces another 21 dB, increasing the allowed number of shots to more than 1200 per 24-hour period. A smaller caliber weapon with a lower peak level, such as 0.22 caliber rifles with peak levels of 144 dB SPL, could be fired as many as 63000 rounds per 24-hour period if the shooter were to wear an active level-dependent earmuff along with a deeply inserted foam earplug. The combination of an earmuff and a deeply-inserted foam earplug can provide as much as 50 dB of peak reduction, which is adequate in most cases.
Double hearing protection can severely compromise the ability to communicate when both devices are passive, linear protectors. The use of an active level-dependent earmuff with a deeply-inserted foam earplug can compensate for the loss of communication ability when double protected. In some cases, the earmuff may provide sufficient gain to counter the attenuation of the earplug.
For shooters, a key indication that whatever protection is being used is inadequate is ringing of the ears or a feeling of fullness in the ears after an episode of shooting.
There are also active level-dependent hearing protectors that are built into pre-molded earplugs and custom earplugs as well on the market. There are no data on their effectiveness. At present, there are no data on the use of an active level-dependent earplug in combination with a passive earmuff. Given the attenuation chain, it is doubtful that the pairing would be as effective as the active level-dependent earmuff with foam earplug.
http://www2a.cdc.gov/hp-devices/huntershooters.html
In most cases, the sound level from firing a weapon is sufficient to require the use of hearing protection, even if the weapon is fired only one time. Recent NIOSH studies of sound levels from weapons fires have shown that they may range from a low of 144 dB SPL for small caliber weapons such as a 0.22 caliber rifle to as high as a 172 dB SPL for a 0.357 caliber revolver.
Consequently, NIOSH recommends that hunters and shooters use double hearing protection each and every time a weapon is fired. Double protection involves wearing both earplugs and earmuffs. The best combination is a deeply inserted foam earplug and a well-seated earmuff.
NIOSH examined the performance of several types of hearing protectors with a variety of weapons. Earplugs were able to reduce the peak sound pressure level by 10 to 30 decibels and earmuffs yielded 20 to 38 decibels of peak reduction. Active level-dependent earmuffs were found to react sufficiently fast to provide the same protection level as when they were turned off [Murphy and Little (2002) J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 111:2336; Franks and Murphy, (2002). J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 112:2294]. The effect of volume gain setting was minimal for active level-dependent devices (see Figure 1). Each protector was tested with the volume set for unity gain, maximum gain or turned off. At unity gain the sound under the protector is as loud as when no protector is worn. The peak reduction was mostly unaffected by the change in the volume setting.
The formula for determining the maximum number of shots is:
10(140-pldB)/10
where pldB is the peak level of the sound in the ear canal under the earmuff and earplug. NIOSH recommends that peak exposures be limited to one event not exceeding a peak level of 140 dB SPL. That is, exposure to one event of 140 dB SPL would constitute 100% of a persons’s noise burden.
As shown in Figure 2, the amount of reduction for 12-gauge shotgun using the David Clark Model 27 earmuff is 31 dB, reducing the peak level from 161(red line) to 130 dB SPL( blue line). So, with the earmuff alone, the number of shots recommended by NIOSH would be five per 24-hour period. The addition of a deeply inserted foam earplug reduces another 21 dB, increasing the allowed number of shots to more than 1200 per 24-hour period. A smaller caliber weapon with a lower peak level, such as 0.22 caliber rifles with peak levels of 144 dB SPL, could be fired as many as 63000 rounds per 24-hour period if the shooter were to wear an active level-dependent earmuff along with a deeply inserted foam earplug. The combination of an earmuff and a deeply-inserted foam earplug can provide as much as 50 dB of peak reduction, which is adequate in most cases.
Double hearing protection can severely compromise the ability to communicate when both devices are passive, linear protectors. The use of an active level-dependent earmuff with a deeply-inserted foam earplug can compensate for the loss of communication ability when double protected. In some cases, the earmuff may provide sufficient gain to counter the attenuation of the earplug.
For shooters, a key indication that whatever protection is being used is inadequate is ringing of the ears or a feeling of fullness in the ears after an episode of shooting.
There are also active level-dependent hearing protectors that are built into pre-molded earplugs and custom earplugs as well on the market. There are no data on their effectiveness. At present, there are no data on the use of an active level-dependent earplug in combination with a passive earmuff. Given the attenuation chain, it is doubtful that the pairing would be as effective as the active level-dependent earmuff with foam earplug.
but when hunting
don't know anyone who wears ear protection and personally shooting a 12 ga and .308 over the last 30 years has never bothered me in a hunting situation. no doubt focussing on the game changes ones perception of the shot. Yeah i'm sure the damage is still done but I'm as likely to blame 25 years of marriage than I am my guns
Anyone use those "Action Ears"?
don't know anyone who wears ear protection and personally shooting a 12 ga and .308 over the last 30 years has never bothered me in a hunting situation. no doubt focussing on the game changes ones perception of the shot. Yeah i'm sure the damage is still done but I'm as likely to blame 25 years of marriage than I am my guns
Anyone use those "Action Ears"?Boy I sure do! Some of my friends consider me excessively careful with my hearing and have teased me a lot about it (I wear foam plugs in noisy bars and especially at concerts) .
Yet at 41 I can still hear most of the "mosquito" ringtones and that sort of thing so I think I got it right in the past.
Stevie-Ray
New member
Good for you, Ze! Please continue to do what you're doing. I'd certainly love to see some of us get it right for a lifetime.ZeSpectre said:
At 41, my hearing was probably already as bad as it is now.
GlockJockey
New member
Folks;
I spoke today to a Doctor of Acoustical Engineering on one of those things that come up from time to time and have been mentioned here - the notion that if you have no hearing protection you should put your hands over your ears and open your mouth to equalise the pressure to help protect your hearing. It's one of those "trumours", i.e. a lot of people say it so it must be true.
It's partly true. Putting your hands over your ears will give your ears some protection (which is better than nothing) but for the most part having your mouth open will make very little difference as you're opening a barrier that would otherwise be closed - your mouth - and letting in the sound and pressure. This travels through the Eustachian tube to the back of your ear. But it will have some good effect if (wait for it....) you're a musician.
People who play woodwind instruments and the like, and who have done so for some time, can condition their Eustachian tube - the small tube that goes from the ear to the throat - to withstand pressure better than most people through the constant pressure on the ears caused by keeping pressure in their mouths. This means that the Eustachian tube is slightly better able to withstand the pressure imparted by the sound, resulting in slightly less damage.
Yeah, it was news to me too, but I though it might be of interest to folks here.
I spoke today to a Doctor of Acoustical Engineering on one of those things that come up from time to time and have been mentioned here - the notion that if you have no hearing protection you should put your hands over your ears and open your mouth to equalise the pressure to help protect your hearing. It's one of those "trumours", i.e. a lot of people say it so it must be true.
It's partly true. Putting your hands over your ears will give your ears some protection (which is better than nothing) but for the most part having your mouth open will make very little difference as you're opening a barrier that would otherwise be closed - your mouth - and letting in the sound and pressure. This travels through the Eustachian tube to the back of your ear. But it will have some good effect if (wait for it....) you're a musician.
People who play woodwind instruments and the like, and who have done so for some time, can condition their Eustachian tube - the small tube that goes from the ear to the throat - to withstand pressure better than most people through the constant pressure on the ears caused by keeping pressure in their mouths. This means that the Eustachian tube is slightly better able to withstand the pressure imparted by the sound, resulting in slightly less damage.
Yeah, it was news to me too, but I though it might be of interest to folks here.
Tucker 1371
New member
I have tinnitus due to shooting without earplugs and probably due to running to the soothing sounds of Metallica on full volume as well 
.
Everything I've heard says it is incurable. Just Google'd it and found something that claims to cure it. Kinda skeptical but I think I'll try it out, it'll be a while before I do but I'll let yall know if it's legit.
.Everything I've heard says it is incurable. Just Google'd it and found something that claims to cure it. Kinda skeptical but I think I'll try it out, it'll be a while before I do but I'll let yall know if it's legit.
Avoiding loud noises
I not only protected my ears from the above, over the decades, I wore hearing protection at home with the lawn mowers, electric saws and my shredder. I avoided that great noise maker, the leaf blower, entirely. Used an old fashion quiet broom.
I'm at an age where I get hearing aid advertisements in the mail. They get thrown out with the other discarded papers.
I not only protected my ears from the above, over the decades, I wore hearing protection at home with the lawn mowers, electric saws and my shredder. I avoided that great noise maker, the leaf blower, entirely. Used an old fashion quiet broom.
I'm at an age where I get hearing aid advertisements in the mail. They get thrown out with the other discarded papers.
Great thread!!!
I've shot a few times with no protection, like hunting, etc. But it only took one time with a 9mm to realize that it wasn't a good idea. Now I work around 12 cylinder diesel engines, and I wear plugs pretty much all day long, whether I'm working on the engines or operating the forklift, I've got them in. I've never liked loud noises.
I've shot a few times with no protection, like hunting, etc. But it only took one time with a 9mm to realize that it wasn't a good idea. Now I work around 12 cylinder diesel engines, and I wear plugs pretty much all day long, whether I'm working on the engines or operating the forklift, I've got them in. I've never liked loud noises.
I am bringing this one to the top again and sticking it for a while.
We have had several threads recently about range incident where ear protection was inadvertently forgotten and asking about hearing loss. This thread is probably the best on this topic that we've ever had on The Firing Line.
We have had several threads recently about range incident where ear protection was inadvertently forgotten and asking about hearing loss. This thread is probably the best on this topic that we've ever had on The Firing Line.
When choesing hearing protection. You need to select the one with the highest NRR. 1 NRR = protection against 1 DB.
OSHA exposure is regulated at 85dba for 8 hours. If an individual is exposed to more than 85 dba a hearing conservation program is required.
Foam plugs are generally more effective than Muffs. The plugs must be inserted properly. If they are not then they don't work.
There is a point, I don't remember level, were noise is transmitted by bone and no standard hearing protection is effective. When I was in the safety profession we used what was basically a full face motorcycle helment.
Following is an excerpt from 29 CFR.
910.95(b)(2)
If the variations in noise level involve maxima at intervals of 1 second or less, it is to be considered continuous.
TABLE G-16 - PERMISSIBLE NOISE EXPOSURES (1)
______________________________________________________________
|
Duration per day, hours | Sound level dBA slow response
____________________________|_________________________________
|
8...........................| 90
6...........................| 92
4...........................| 95
3...........................| 97
2...........................| 100
1 1/2 ......................| 102
1...........................| 105
1/2 ........................| 110
1/4 or less................| 115
____________________________|________________________________
Footnote(1) When the daily noise exposure is composed of two or
more periods of noise exposure of different levels, their combined
effect should be considered, rather than the individual effect of
each. If the sum of the following fractions: C(1)/T(1) + C(2)/T(2)
C
/T exceeds unity, then, the mixed exposure should be
considered to exceed the limit value. Cn indicates the total time of
exposure at a specified noise level, and Tn indicates the total time
of exposure permitted at that level. Exposure to impulsive or impact
noise should not exceed 140 dB peak sound pressure level.
A simple method of determining how much protection and how long you should expose your self to gun fire is as follows.
Take the noise level presented by the 1st poster subtract the NRR on your protective device from the reported DB levels, check the chart and that will approximate the amount of time you should expose yourself during any single shooting session.
This is a rule of thumb and as simple a guide as can be presented without a full noise survey.
For those of you who know about the full effect of impulse/impact noise, this is a guide for laymen it is not intended to give full protection.
OSHA exposure is regulated at 85dba for 8 hours. If an individual is exposed to more than 85 dba a hearing conservation program is required.
Foam plugs are generally more effective than Muffs. The plugs must be inserted properly. If they are not then they don't work.
There is a point, I don't remember level, were noise is transmitted by bone and no standard hearing protection is effective. When I was in the safety profession we used what was basically a full face motorcycle helment.
Following is an excerpt from 29 CFR.
910.95(b)(2)
If the variations in noise level involve maxima at intervals of 1 second or less, it is to be considered continuous.
TABLE G-16 - PERMISSIBLE NOISE EXPOSURES (1)
______________________________________________________________
|
Duration per day, hours | Sound level dBA slow response
____________________________|_________________________________
|
8...........................| 90
6...........................| 92
4...........................| 95
3...........................| 97
2...........................| 100
1 1/2 ......................| 102
1...........................| 105
1/2 ........................| 110
1/4 or less................| 115
____________________________|________________________________
Footnote(1) When the daily noise exposure is composed of two or
more periods of noise exposure of different levels, their combined
effect should be considered, rather than the individual effect of
each. If the sum of the following fractions: C(1)/T(1) + C(2)/T(2)
C
/T exceeds unity, then, the mixed exposure should beconsidered to exceed the limit value. Cn indicates the total time of
exposure at a specified noise level, and Tn indicates the total time
of exposure permitted at that level. Exposure to impulsive or impact
noise should not exceed 140 dB peak sound pressure level.
A simple method of determining how much protection and how long you should expose your self to gun fire is as follows.
Take the noise level presented by the 1st poster subtract the NRR on your protective device from the reported DB levels, check the chart and that will approximate the amount of time you should expose yourself during any single shooting session.
This is a rule of thumb and as simple a guide as can be presented without a full noise survey.
For those of you who know about the full effect of impulse/impact noise, this is a guide for laymen it is not intended to give full protection.
I can't think of anything more boring than measuring hearing loss. For one, we're not all made equal, and that includes our hearing apparatus.
For years I flew right seat in a navy skyraider, with night and day deck and catapult launches in open canopies, and that big Pratt Whitney engines sitting in your lap. It wasn't until years later, in my early sixties' that I noticed any hearing loss.
Today I'm pretty deaf. But what do I blame it on? Nothing, it's part of living. I can think back on the many rounds fired before anyone knew it was harmful, and it was even years later before any meaningful protection was available. So I'm a deaf product of my times. You can take all of the dB's and stuff them.
Oh yeah! I wear ear protection while shooting. Occasionally I'll fire a mag. without protection, just to keep in the real world. Oh excuse me, Mr. Murderer, give me a minute while I protect my hearing….
For years I flew right seat in a navy skyraider, with night and day deck and catapult launches in open canopies, and that big Pratt Whitney engines sitting in your lap. It wasn't until years later, in my early sixties' that I noticed any hearing loss.
Today I'm pretty deaf. But what do I blame it on? Nothing, it's part of living. I can think back on the many rounds fired before anyone knew it was harmful, and it was even years later before any meaningful protection was available. So I'm a deaf product of my times. You can take all of the dB's and stuff them.
Oh yeah! I wear ear protection while shooting. Occasionally I'll fire a mag. without protection, just to keep in the real world. Oh excuse me, Mr. Murderer, give me a minute while I protect my hearing….