Head Shots

I didn't read all the other posts, so forgive me if i repeat anything said prior to this post.

In this situation of the BG holding a weapon to another person's head, who is the other person? Is this a bak robbery or carjacking? is it someone kicking in your backdoor and grabbing your wife/son/daughter/husband/etc? Are you in a LE position? the answers to these questions may determine what actions should be taken. As an NON-LEO, drawing and shooting to save a civilian, while very commenadable, may land you in some legal trouble. As a civilian carrying a gun for personal protection, the gun should only be used for that-personal protection. What happens if you miss and hit the hostage as a civilian. What kind of criminal or civil charges await you? what are the penalties for action? Loss of gun or permit or both? Jail time? Is it worth it?

From a LEO perspective, everything changes and i am in no position to give such advice.
 
Several posts did emphasize that the BG wants to keep the hostage alive so they have some "power" over the situation. I agree with that, but think the BG might need reminding of that. So, given that shooting the BG's gun is apparently a bad idea, I think I would explain to the BG that:

1. "I assume you will kill my wife or child for certain if you leave with her/him."
2. "Therefore, you cannot leave with them, period. Period!"
3. "If you try to do so, I will shoot you in the head and take my chances on survival of the spouse/son. At least this way, they have a chance of survival."
4. "But the easiest thing would be for you to just leave, in which case I won't shoot you in the head and we all win. See, it's a win-win situation. Go!"

If I were the BG, and someone were 10 feet away with a 9mm aimed at my head, I think I would take this deal and literally run with it.

Hunkering down in your own bedroom is a great idea for those who don't have family members in other parts of the house, but it is clearly not acceptable to leave the BG roaming around your house when other family members are not hunkering down with you.
 
WOW! I was surprised to see this thread resurrected. The best response to my original question was probably from chrisandclaudia2 and Aqeous brought up some good points as well.

There was never any "set" scenario. None of this "It was 8:43 at night with a SW wind at 5 mph; just having finished a Sydney’s Sinful Sundae and regretting it as I'm lactose intolerant when...blah, blah, blah," LOL! It was just a simple question of the possibility of a muscle contraction after a shot to the brain. Of course with anything, there's always a possibility.

I was looking for any scientific data or definitive answer along the lines of my cousin's wife has a friend who works with a guy who dated a girl in 1978 who's uncle that was twice removed witnessed...you know, first hand experience type stuff. I ended up having the police, SWAT and hostage negotiators showing up. I'm throwing out ball bearings, moving furniture and swallowing keys. Of course, the key won't stay there long due to the whole lactose intolerant thing. I have Girl Scouts with cookies, Jehovah Witnesses and kids trying to sell magazines to fund their trip to Florida.

In all seriousness, there was some very well made points and it was interesting to see this thread come to life. Probably more so than if I would have given a specific scenario to start off with. I appreciate everyone's input and taking the time to post a response.

Thanks.
 
After reading this thread I have taken to placing a small kiwi fruit inside a canaloupe and practicing at shooting it it out without hitting the more innocent looking honeydew placed in front of it slightly to the side. You never know when these skills might come in handy. :rolleyes:
 
This IS a no shoot no question

Sorry guys,

This is a lose, lose, lose, win.

you LOSE if you are too slow, bad guy pulls the trigger (remember the gun is cocked)

you LOSE if you miss the shot. (bad guy pulls the trigger)

you lose if there is movement and you shoot the hostage.

YOU do win if everything goes your way.

I do not want those odds, nor do I want to be the stimulus for the BG to pull the trigger.

Find cover, Keep your sight alignment and wait for a better shot.


We don't have much in the way of details in this nightmare, distance to target, light conditions, BG state of mind. MY testing indicates that the average Joe does not make this shot.

Good Luck & Be Safe
 
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About ten years ago we had a hostage situation in a local fast food place. Knife to the throat of a female patron and a city LEO took the shot from the roof of another fast food joint accross the street with a rifle. Only one injured was bad guy, he sort of died. Now, with a handgun and say the hostage and the BG are so close their heads are touching, you may miss and hit the hostage.
 
"About ten years ago we had a hostage situation in a local fast food place. Knife to the throat of a female patron and a city LEO took the shot from the roof of another fast food joint accross the street with a rifle. Only one injured was bad guy, he sort of died. Now, with a handgun and say the hostage and the BG are so close their heads are touching, you may miss and hit the hostage."

A trained police sniper with a high powered hunting rifle, special ammo, and telescopic sights is a LOT different than an untrained civilian CWP holder with a short barrel pistol, Wal-Mart brand JHPs, and a tongue and groove sight.
 
evan

In return fire of titans, in the immortal words of Cooper, "no amount of sheep like utterances of I'm sorry, will call back a round WHEN YOU MISS and hit the hostage."
 
evan

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In return fire of titans, in the immortal words of Cooper, "no amount of sheep like utterances of I'm sorry, will call back a round WHEN YOU MISS and hit the hostage."
Click to expand...


I was completly kidding in my comment...quoting FPS Doug..I thought that was obvious :D...I did say JK by the way! ;)

No but seriously...that would be a shot I would really not want to take. I shoot a lot and Im fairly confident in my pistol skills, however high stess situations make for a low probability of placing a successfully head shot with a handgun. Additionally, movement of all parties involved as well as the unpredictability of handgun rounds (even if they strike the threat's head) makes for a terribly difficult shot to pull off.

With a scoped rifle on a SWAT team...well, thats a different story.
 
With a couple of my handguns I'm a pretty good shot, but I have to defer to the gentleman from Camp David. I would hope I could stall long enough for LE to arrive. I don't have the faith in my abilities to try the head shot with a loved one being the hostage. I don't know what Id do but Id ahve to rule the coconut shot out. Hope for a better shot or for help to arrive. God forbid any of us ever has to face that situation.
 
Evan

I am the one to apologize, I know so little of the protocols concerning chat boards, did not know JK meant just kidding.

thanks for the info

Scattergun Bob
 
This is my first post in this section because I am not trained in this area and I have very limited knowlege of this nature. But what I do know is that I trapped racoons when I was a kid, and I carried a 22 mag on the trapline. I can tell you one thing: when I shot trapped coons in the head, nearly all thrashed and wriggled and flipped around for a good 10 seconds. This was from a few feet away with a bullet that turned their head into pudding. I pray I will never be in this situation, but if I was, I would never shoot a person in the head who had their finger on the trigger of a gun pointed at a hostage.

I do remember reading somewhere that military snipers always shoot for the torso since its the biggest target, but in a hostage situation the point of aim is the upper lip with a head on shot, I guess it would allow the bullet to expand and then take out the spinal cord right under the brainstem. Maybe I'm wrong, but thats what I remember.
 
This isn't meant to the last poster or anyone in specific. Hitting the brain stem? Are we 15 here?(we all know that when your 15 or so to about 20 you KNOW EVERYTHING).
 
I'm surprised to see the diversity of opinions on this question, and I wonder if it's because some people are implicitly assuming something like the following:

(1) the BG has taken a hostage and presumably wants you to either surrender your weapon or to leave the premises with the hostage; and (2) no one has called law enforcement so there is no calvary coming to help.​

So, I'm curious, with those assumptions, would many of you either surrender your weapon and/or let the BG leave the premises with the hostage instead of taking the shot?
 
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If you surrender your weapon, the bad guy now has two hostages, and a choice of which to keep, if he so desires.

As for the calvary, even if 911 is called, you are still looking at something like 4-15 minutes average response time for most major municipalities. For example, Dallas was proud that they had dropped below 9 minutes from double digits for top priority calls, even though they are still above 10 for some areas. http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/spe/2004/dallas/crime2.html
 
sqShane

The thing I don't like about addons to threads is that it changes the complexion of the problem. In a way it emulates real life events, nothing ever stays vanilla for long.

There is one Shotgun Sure thing here, NEVER EVER surrender your weapon. NO, you don't understand NEVER EVER surrender your weapon, it will cost you your life! Now do you understand.

Do I let the BG move the hostage to a secondary location? If I am the hostage the answer is hell no. If I am the shooter, I guess I'll cop out and say give me more details.
 
I was in a similar situation. We did not take the shot...

Everything turned out fine.

I could have taken the shot... and everything would have turned out fine.

Did I F#$k up because I let the situation dictate?... Even though everything turned out ok?

Which would be harder to live with?

Not taking the shot and the hostage is killed or taking the shot and the hostage is killed?

-Coop
 
I say shoot the arm holding the weapon...sever the muscles and they wont be able to pull the trigger. Aim for the muscles on the inside of the elbow...
 
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