Head Shots

"Quote:
I'm surprised to hear you invoke the name of Ayoob.

Haven't heard that name in years."


He posts on this forum regularly and has columns in American Handgunner and Combat Handguns.






- It's been a long time since I've picked up either mag- at least 6 years, since I've been overseas for that long. Before that, I was an avid reader of both mags, and I've read many of his articles from back in the '90's. As for his posts, I am looking forward to reading them, since I'm a noob and still learning my way around.:)
 
Peoples body's are built to fall forward when they go unconscious.

Think about it - think about the ways your knees bend? The way your neck beds?

Only on TV do people faint get shot, etc, etc, etc, and fall backwards. So if you see someone faint and fall backwards its because they are faking it and don't want to break their nose.

Not to say you won't go backwards if you slip or are pushed but when the body goes unconscious the knees bend, the head droops downward and forward, and the body falls face first.

So if you get a stop shot to the head the BG will not fall backwards cutting the victims throat.
 
Peoples body's are built to fall forward when they go unconscious.

Think about it - think about the ways your knees bend? The way your neck beds?

Only on TV do people faint get shot, etc, etc, etc, and fall backwards. So if you see someone faint and fall backwards its because they are faking it and don't want to break their nose.
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Cause and effect...People's bodies are not built to fall in any direction. They may tend to fall in a given direction, but it isn't some sort of design parameter.

Your logic on the knees is weird. Based on how the knees bend, a person will fall backwards. The ankles are more prone to let you fall forward, as it the waist. With that said, what causes the direction of falling is based on a variety of parameters, not just the orientation of the joints.

Here is a nifty clip of where fainting people are shown falling in all sorts of directions....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VQJombZDO8

Notice that not all fall on their faces.

In watching some of the posted sniper and battlefield videos, there are folks to drop like rag dolls when suffering a CNS hit, and crumple down on top of themselves.
 
Notice that not all fall on their faces.
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Right. And fainting is quite different from getting shot. the shooting also carries with it the bodies flinch and reaction muscle movement, which can cause all sorts of unusual movements/directions.

A n ote since it was touched on by our Camp David friend, head shots don't always work, the ability to get through the skull is dependent on a lot of factors. I worked a case once where the victim was shot in the face close enough to get powder burns with a 2" .38. When we go to the scene he was up walking and talking. At the hospital they pulled the slug out through his nose, as it had bounced off bone and come to rest in the sinus cavity.
 
If given the choice of either taking the shot or letting the hostage taker leave with the hostage, I would have to shoot. Provided that it was within my abilities.

If there are other options I certainly can't see them. For me its end the situation or let them leave and hope the badguy lets them go alive. Perhaps David can provide us with the other options. Remember Lurpers assumptions are a family member taken hostage and the badguy wants to leave the scene with hostage. No cops just me, my family member, and the badguy. What are the options?
 
Who says the hostage taker is leaving?

For grins and giggles let's pretend we are in my house and my wife is the hostage. The hostage taker IS NOT LEAVING WITH THE HOSTAGE!

I will contain and control the situation until the local LEO's get there. The hostage taker is free to go at any time but I will not let a hostage be taken to another location, nor will I relenquish my weapons.

If the hostage taker kills the hostage, guess what? As I said before, all his bargaining power is moot. As far as head shots go, I'm a pretty good shot but have missed paper target headshots in competition, so I wouldn't attempt it.

Fantasy is one thing, reality is another.

Biker
 
sidenote

I think that reasoning with the guy in a calm manner and saying "if you put down the knife and don't harm ____ I will let you leave...I don't want to shoot you or anyone else". However, you aren't leaving with ______". I think that MOST bad guys will take the easy way out and drop the knife. After they did, I would shoot him several times for spite.
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I would watch this kind of mentality in a public forum, New. I was previously addressed that it is possible to bring this information and discussion up in a courtroom. Though I am surely no legal expert, is it a good idea to spout that considering it could be used against you if you, God forbid, end up in this kind of situation?
 
Remember Lurpers assumptions are a family member taken hostage and the badguy wants to leave the scene with hostage.
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Let us also remember that Lurpers assumptions are very different than the original scenario. That is the problem with so much of this nonsense, there are an infinite number of paths in the scenarios and thus options depending on how each individual wants to make their own assumptions. For example, I might assume that in this situation I would have a box of small ball bearings that I could spread across the floor making it impossible for the BG to keep his balance when he tried to leave with a hostage. Hooray, problem solved!
For me its end the situation or let them leave and hope the badguy lets them go alive. Perhaps David can provide us with the other options.
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Sure. There are lots of options that involve taking some action other than shooting. Shove the couch in front of the door. Lock the deadbolt and swallow the key. Pretend not to understand what the BG is saying, and talk back in a foreign language. Talk a whole lot. Again, the BG didn’t just take a hostage for the fun of it, he took a hostage for a reason. What is that reason? Can we meet that goal in a manner that allows all parties to avoid getting hurt? People tend to look at this sort of thing as black or white. It rarely is. There are usually a number of options and alternatives available. Biker sums things up pretty good.
 
I witnessed several occasions about hostage taking. Some police made mistakes by firing at the hostage taker, the hostage got killed too.

In some occassions too, when the hostage taker plan to escape after long negotiation, then he was shot.

Lately, 1 bus full of kindergarten kids were hostaged by an idiot fanatics, through long negotiation and patience on the part of the police forces, none was killed. Everthing went well.

It depends on the situation on the area on what proper response to adapt or do.

Be patient, don't be a trigger happy policeman or le on the spot, you might put yourself, your teamleader or department in hot water. After the hostage taking resolve, then even you killed the hostage taker by a covert acts later on.

Well, in every country there are different approach. I am only speaking for my country Philippines.
 
"Wait until a more favorable opportunity presents itself."

Wait until a more favorable opportunity presents itself.
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...like the hostage getting killed anyway?

It's a hard scenarion and nobody shall be blamed for whatever he decides to do. But if you have chance to shoot the brain stem and the ability to do so, I couldn't imagine a more favorable opportunity to wait for (not) to come...
 
But if you have chance to shoot the brain stem and the ability to do so, I couldn't imagine a more favorable opportunity to wait for (not) to come...
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It is always interesting when folks suggest trying to hit a specific an fairly small internal location, such as a brain stem that is shielded by bone. It becomes really hard if you have to do it from the front.
 
Unfortunately, I never found out the actual path of the bullet.
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An interesting point here, I was hunting in WV for deer several years back. I had a doe permit and was using my .270 REM. I took a head shot at about 50 yds. I hit just behind the eye right in the flatter part of the side of the skull. The deer dropped like a sack of potato's, however the bullet, a soft point, turned down at 90 degrees went down the neck and exited on the side I was shooting from just above the top of the leg. Moral of the story, bullets do funny things and can't be predicted. I never found that bullet, I'm just glad it didn't find me!
 
Head shots? When I was teaching some police officers different shooting techniques involving precision shots, which is what head shots are, we found that before the officers had practiced precision shooting that about 3 out of 4 of them, at very close range of under 7 yards, would hit the victim in the head instead of the hostage taker. After about 2 years or so of practice involving precision shooting, the majority of officers could make head shots at 10 yards or less with no trouble. Believe me, it takes time and lots of ammo to make somebody into a fair precise shooter able to make head shots AND, get this, PRECISION SHOOTING IS A SKILL THAT CAN QUICKLY FADE AWAY IF IT IS NOT PRACTICED. So, if you're going to take head shots you will need lots and lots of practice to stay current in it.
 
I've seen too many cases of the bullet not penetrating the skull and going around and exiting the rear, leaving the BG (or in some instances GG) capable of continuing the fight.

Hostages are often used as a way out, so if they think you are willing to shoot they're probably going to take what they can while they can.

I would comply until he thinks he's free, then punch his ticket :D. Or just stall until the real law enforcement come with snipers, who probably still wouldn't shoot a guy with a hostage under his direct control.
 
I know this thread is a bit old, but I was reading through it on my lunch break, and wondered about the following. Suppose the BG has a relatively large handgun pointed at the hostage's head and you are only 10 feet or so away. Is it an obviously bad idea to try to shoot the gun itself? Would this almost surely cause it to fire into the hostage's head, or could the 350+ foot pounds of energy knock it back away from the hostage's head before it fired? I have no position on this, just curious if there is a well known answer.

S
 
"Thanks for any input."

I'm getting in late on this one. DO NOT take the shot unless you can guarantee the perp will be INSTANTLY rendered nerveless with loss of ALL muscle control (ain't never gonna happen!). You can not guarantee the perp's knife will fall harmlessly away from the victim's throat or his index finger will relax harmlessly from the trigger. If you can somehow communicate to the victim to "faint", you MIGHT go for a shot when they go down, revealing more of the perp. As for letting the perp leave with a hostage, that's another scene entirely. You might have to take a chance there. Don't be too eager to shoot. If you have him cold in your sights, there's no need to hurry things. Try to talk him down.

Also, are you that good of a shot to hit that target dead center when you're pumped full of adrenaline? Think about what happens if you don't.
 
"Is it an obviously bad idea to try to shoot the gun itself?"

EXTREMELY bad!!! First, if the perp has that pistol on SA, it only takes a couple of pounds of pressure to trigger a shot. My wife's Colt Defender only takes 3.5 pounds. Even my Taurus 85UL is only about 6 pounds with a custom spring job.

I'll ask the same question I asked the original poster. Are you that good of a shot to hit that small target even from only 10 feet away when you're pumped full of adrenaline? Can you guarantee YOUR bullet won't ricochet and hit the victim?

Remember, most states require you to use a thought process that any REASONABLE person would use when you decide to shoot. Is it really reasonable to shoot only inches from an innocent person's head? I think not.
 
+ 1 chrisandclauida2


Thats a man that knows what he's talking about. He also gave a great argument for caliber vs bullet vs penetration. People have been shot right between the eyes with 9mm's and lived. If you want to quote movies check out Mercury Rising. Its one of the few movies that include a head shot that does not = instant death. The man in question is able to crawl over and dial a phone before succumbing to a flurry of additional bullets compliments of the BG.

I will add one thing however. The brain is encased in a skull, and thus does not respond well to compressive forces. Meaning, if you step up your ammo a little bit, .308 for snipers and adequate .40 JHP's and up for pistols, you will be able impart significant damage in the form of blunt force trauma to the entire brain. The result is a drastic increase in your likely hood of incapacitation. You might not have to actually permeate the "off switch" in order to effect it.

Point blank hollow points to the head can be very messy. (trust me) I've seen photos that vividly prove that point. Bullet weight is of key importance as well . . . a heavier bullet won't as easily glance off of bone as a light 9mm round.

So, to add specificness to this debate. Do you have a 9mm service pistol loaded with full metal jackets OR is it a magnum wheel gun chambered in anything from 10mm to .500 S&W? It does make a big difference.

The disposition of the BG is also key. Assuming he his violent, on drugs and not rational at the time (and you are in possition relative to your own shooting abilities) hesitation may not be the best defense. But if he is not all of those things, shooting would be irresponsible and the outcome would be on your hands. Regardless of which way it went . . .
 
For example, I might assume that in this situation I would have a box of small ball bearings that I could spread across the floor making it impossible for the BG to keep his balance when he tried to leave with a hostage. Hooray, problem solved!
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Sure. There are lots of options that involve taking some action other than shooting. Shove the couch in front of the door. Lock the deadbolt and swallow the key. Pretend not to understand what the BG is saying, and talk back in a foreign language.
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David, Kinda late (my response) but you already knew I was responding to Lurpers twist on the scenario. Great to see that you do have a sense of humor. Still can't see how you can keep them in the house as they usually have 2 entrances/exits and you are only one person.
 
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