One does not.Posted by ltc444: How does one engage a target without exposing ones self to the target?
How does one engage a target without exposing ones self to the target?
I am going to have to take exception to all posters who envision staying in a bedroom at the top of the stairs is advantageous to confronting the bg on the stairway.
That is NOT a good decision, . . . in fact, . . . it is a very poor one
Not necessarily, if his motive is to take valuables...but if he sees you, he may well decide to shoot you.Posted by Dwight55: The fact that the bg is ascending the stairs means he is coming after you, and your family.
Only if he sees them.Waiting until he is on your level, . . . exposes the whole family to his gunfire.
Your objective is not to win a battle, but to avoid it if possible, while keeping the family safe.Basic battle tactics never change from the battlefield to the house, . . . from the kitchen to the church, . . . engage them from cover, . . . with as much concealment as possible, . . . engage them when they are vulnerable, . . . engage them when non combatants are at the least risk, . . .
Yet the experts are virtually unanimous in recommending going to a saferoom.Waiting till they enter the bedroom, . . . may as well voted for Obama. Makes about as much sense.
They might be advisable if your objective were to engage the intruder while putting yourself at risk to do so, but that is not the objective of home defense.FWIW: those are the tactics learned as an 11B40, . . . light infantry platoon sergeant, . . . they work for our men in the sandbox, . . . they'll work for us at home.
charlie12: said:I have a mossberg 500. I have the BR's on the top fl (2nd floor). My plan is to have kids with wife in a BR and me waiting in hallway guarding the stairs making sure no one comes up. I do have some concealment - i can conceal myself to the side but will be exposed if I need to fire down the stairs. Is this a good plan or should I retreat with family in BR? I do not like the idea of going into BR with fam because I feel the BG can take a shot when the door it broken down or opened.
Thanks for your thoughts.
I am going to have to take exception to all posters who envision staying in a bedroom at the top of the stairs is advantageous to confronting the bg on the stairway.
That is NOT a good decision, . . . in fact, . . . it is a very poor one.
The fact that the bg is ascending the stairs means he is coming after you, and your family.
Waiting until he is on your level, . . . exposes the whole family to his gunfire.
When the bg is coming up the stairs, . . . you have a door frame behind which to hide most of your normal sized bodies. He has only the air in front of him behind which to hide.
Take him out while he is vulnerable. If he gains the top of the stairs, he has options, . . . in the stairwell, . . . he has option 1 (get shot), . . . option 2(turn and flee), . . .
Once he is in your doorway, . . . maybe you get off the first shot, . . . maybe you get him, . . . maybe he sprays and prays with a 16 shot semi auto and your wife, son, or granddaugher pays the price.
Basic battle tactics never change from the battlefield to the house, . . . from the kitchen to the church, . . . engage them from cover, . . . with as much concealment as possible, . . . engage them when they are vulnerable, . . . engage them when non combatants are at the least risk, . . .
Waiting till they enter the bedroom, . . . may as well voted for Obama. Makes about as much sense.
FWIW: those are the tactics learned as an 11B40, . . . light infantry platoon sergeant, . . . they work for our men in the sandbox, . . . they'll work for us at home.
May God bless,
Dwight
I am going to have to take exception to all posters who envision staying in a bedroom at the top of the stairs is advantageous to confronting the bg on the stairway.
That is NOT a good decision, . . . in fact, . . . it is a very poor one.
The fact that the bg is ascending the stairs means he is coming after you, and your family.
Waiting until he is on your level, . . . exposes the whole family to his gunfire.
Your objective is not to win a battle, but to avoid it if possible, while keeping the family safe.
I believe it is universally accepted that doorways, and especially stairways are really bad places 'funnels' to have to pass through when clearing a house. If everyone is upstairs and safe, why not put that 'funnel' to your advantage by using it against your invader?
The last place I would want to be is ascending a stairway with an armed opponent at the top. He would have the advantage of some cover and concealment, elevation, and reward mobility. I would be stuck with almost no good mobility or cover.
They might be advisable if your objective were to engage the intruder while putting yourself at risk to do so, but that is not the objective of home defense.
Yet the experts are virtually unanimous in recommending going to a saferoom.
I've cleared more houses than I care to recall during my 20+ year LE career and the stairway (like a doorway) is a fatal funnel. Easiest and best to stop the threat there.
FWIW: those are the tactics learned as an 11B40, . . . light infantry platoon sergeant, . . . they work for our men in the sandbox, . . . they'll work for us at home.
He is of course a threat, but until and unless he actually decides to cause mayhem, I would not want to consider him a target, or to put myself at risk by exposing myself to engage him in mortal combat.Posted by OuTcAsT: Once someone has entered my home illegally, he has just become two things simultaneously: 1. A Threat, and 2. An Adversary (Target, Enemy,etc.)
Cover, concealment, moving, active...several contradictions there.If I can defend my family from a forward position, that offers me the advantages of cover, concealment, and the high ground advantage, along with my being able to be a moving, active shooter, ...
He is of course a threat, but until and unless he actually decides to cause mayhem, I would not want to consider him a target,
Cover, concealment, moving, active...several contradictions there.
Can you cite any recognized experts who recommend anything other than a saferoom strategy for home defense?
Of course. That is the basis of the principles of the castle doctrine, which were long rooted in ancient common law.Posted by OuTcAsT: I consider someone who has already broken in my home as an immediate dangerous threat. He/they could be after my TV, or my Wife or Granddaughter, or one of my Sons. I am not gonna discuss his intentions with him/them.
Outside my home, I will try and avoid a confrontation if at all possible, Inside, no such "benefit of doubt" exists.
No, not in this "arena." You seem determined to continue confuse the role of the home defender with those of persons engaged in in combat or law enforcement.I cited Dwight55 and 481. A combat veteran, and a veteran LEO. I think either qualify as "experts" in this arena.
The discussion at hand is whether it is better to defend from a saferoom, if getting everyone into one is possible under the circumstances, or to go somewhere and expose oneself to danger with the hope of "defending the high ground." The vast majority of the recognized experts in the subject of hole defense advise the former.Also, you keep using the word "saferoom" There is a huge difference in a Saferoom and an ordinary Bedroom like the ones found in the average stick house, consult your experts on this subject.
You really need to get your facts straight.ltc444 said:...In AZ our laws are not as draconian as many of the liberal states. Basically, if we have an intruder we are presumed to be in danger for our lives and we may shot the BG. If we do not administer a coup de grace and we keep our mouths shut we will not be charged. The exception is Pima County and Tucson they tend toward CA rules...
OldMarksman: said:No, not in this "arena." You seem determined to continue confuse the role of the home defender with those of persons engaged in in combat or law enforcement.
The duties of sworn officers and those of combat soldiers differ markedly from the responsibilities of the civilian defender.
The sworn officer's team must find and apprehend a suspect, and put him in custody. The soldier's team must destroy the enemy's ability to fight. While due caution will be exercised and we hope that neither will be harmed, both duties must take precedence over their own personal safety. Should either be hurt or killed, his or her fellow officers or fellow squad members will replace them and perform their duties. And of course, we will recognize them for valor after the fact.
The civilian defender has no responsibility to find an invader and shoot him or to arrest him. His sole responsibility is to defend his family. Should he killed or seriously injured, there is no one to immediately replace him. He has the valuable luxury of letting the threat come to him.
Thus, the battle analogies and house-clearing tactics are not applicable here, and someone who has engaged in one or the other is not automatically considered an expert in home defense.
SPEMack618: said:...or if I'm in my slippers and boxers dragging my sister into the bathroom as I shove buckshot into my Mossberg.
Of course the skills and training apply, but when a combat soldier is defending his home in a civilian setting, or when a sworn officer is defending his home in another jurisdiction, his sole responsibility is defending his family, which obviously entails putting self preservation at the top of the priority list. He has no obligation to seek, find, pursue, disarm, or detain the perps. He has no responsibility to defeat them because of what they might do them except at the point at which that becomes immediately necessary to defend against death or serious bodily harm--regardless of why the perps entered the house in the first place.Posted by 481: The experience and skills that our police officers and soldiers possess are just as applicable when it is their personal well-being and that of their families on the line. It is not as if suddenly we forget all that we've learned or are constrained somehow from using the knowledge and training we've gained as a result of our chosen careers in order to protect "us and ours".
Oldmarksman: said:Of course the skills and training apply, but when a combat soldier is defending his home in a civilian setting, or when a sworn officer is defending his home in another jurisdiction, his sole responsibility is defending his family, which obviously entails putting self preservation at the top of the priority list. He has no obligation to seek, find, pursue, disarm, or detain the perps. He has no responsibility to defeat them because of what they might do them except at the point at which that becomes immediately necessary to defend against death or serious bodily harm--regardless of why the perps entered the house in the first place.
Oldmarksman: said:Of course, that is if that becomes possible. There is no reason to expect dangerous, violent criminal actors to enter the house at night when the family members are in their sleeping quarters,....