Have you ever NEEDED a High-Cap Mag?

S

sven

New member
I'm just curious if anyone out there has ever been in a situation where having more than 10 rounds proved to be of tactical significance, in terms of the ultimate resolution of the situation.

If not personally, have you heard of such situations? (ie, BG is reloading, cop has an extra 7 rounds ready to rip, or vice versa).

Is it really such a big deal to have access to high-cap mags?

Other than the mechanical design problems with crippled mags, along with the idea of having to carry almost twice as many mags around, how significant is the time penalty in a stress situation for having a 10 rounders, versus, say 17 round mags?

Thanks,

-sven in 10-round max CA
 
Jeff Cooper

Keep in mind, Col. Cooper has discussed the idiocy of the unpleasant looking weapons and magazine capacity ban many times, calling it an affront to the Constitution, which it is.

However, being of the old school, he doesn't seem to be a fan of double column magazines (in a handgun) at all.

Quote:

We are amused to note an ad in a slick magazine saying, "Slim is in." Wal ah be dogged! What you should get is a firearm that is "in." If your pistol is not in, you will just have to go to the rear of the class. The man who wrote that ad, of course, is an ad man, only vaguely interested in the truth. The point that he is making is that the double-column magazine, introduced by the venerable P35, makes for a pretty broad butt if it is to be wrapped around a major caliber. A great many rounds in a service pistol is not really very important. The highest score I know of, and I have been studying this matter for a very long time, tallied five stops without reloading. It was executed with a 1911 pistol with eight rounds aboard. Four goblins were dead on the scene and the fifth was carted away on a stretcher. (I am pleased to say that in this case the shooter was a student of mine.)

But the point is that whether slim is in or out is not a consideration of consequence. A pistol is a close-range, antipersonnel device. The P35 was a notable weapon, but it did start us off on a false trail

End Quote.
 
Thankfully, I think the vast majority of members here have never had to actually face an armed threat. I came close once, but never had to draw. I can tell you however that the caliber gave me much more confidence (a .45) than had the weapon been a hi-cap of lesser caliber.

Here's why. The person was a drunk standing only two feet away from me at a bus stop. He was rambling on to me, and I ignored him at first. But then he started on about "people like me" (he was of another race) and started getting belligerent. He finally started poking me to get my attention, at which point I warned him to back off. Fortunately at that exact moment the bus came, and I let him get on the bus instead (I wasn't in a hurry).

Anyway, had the situation really turned ugly and I couldn't escape, and if I needed to draw and fire, given the close range it would have been a one or two shot affair. Bringing him down fast would have been more important that still having plenty of ammo left afterwards. Most engagements are like this. You're unlikely to engage a huge pack of goblins at once, and if you do you're actually in a situation that you're unlikely to be able to get out of alone. Once can say that a hi-cap would give you more options, and maybe so. But personally I'd rather stay out of that kind of situation to begin with, unless I was a cop and had no choice.
 
I have never had need for a hi-cap mag but on some details knowing that I may have to face 3 or more agressors at short
range I felt a little better about having enough ammo on board.
 
I "need" a standard capacity magazine because possessing it is my God given right!!! Use has nothing to do with it. I might "need" it some day and the government has no right to keep me from it!!
 
Cooper is a big proponent of high-cap double stack magazines. He loves the CZ75 and designed his Bren 10 around it.

Shot placement being key to effective use of a handgun, doesn't more shots, more individual instances of controlled fire, better than less? Having more options is just hedging your bets, and in an armed confrontation you will want all the insurance you can get.
 
Cooper is a big proponent of high-cap double stack magazines. He loves the CZ75 and designed his Bren 10 around it.
Click to expand...

Did you not read the quote I posted? I've read nearly all of Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, and as the quote I posted above shows, Col. Cooper is clearly NOT a propontent of high-cap double stack magazines. He just said he sees little utility in more than eight or so rounds in a handgun. From his readings, it's obvious his favorite pistol is the 1911, and his favorite cartridge the .45ACP.

He actually had very little to do with the design of either the 10mm cartridge or the Bren pistol, according to his own writings.
 
Introduced in 1983 in the ill fated Bren Ten autoloading pistol, the 10mm Auto has quickly become one of the most successful cartridges developed during this century. The idea originated with Whit Collins, who assisted in the project by John Adams, Irving Stone, and Jeff Cooper, but the credit for keeping this .40 caliber cartridge alive during its youth has to go to Colt for giving it a permanent home in the excellent Delta Elite version of its famous 1911 Government Model pistol.
-Hodgdon Data Manual, 26th Edition
Click to expand...


It's pretty much common knowledge that Cooper wrote quite a bit about the CZ75 and that it was the only SA/DA gun he would (and did) endorse. It's also common knowledge that Cooper was a major contributor to the Bren Ten.

Try going to groups.google.com and doing a newsgroup search on "cooper cz75".
 
True that Jeff Cooper is a proponent of the CZ-75 design. He also had a lot of input on the Bren Ten, but I don't believe he was actually a designer, as such. He wasn't even employed by them.
The double stack magazine and DA/SA trigger would not be features he liked, as well as the 9mm and .40 S&W choises.
That said, I would put the 9mm, .45 ACP, 30-06, and .308 as being successful cartridges. While I like the 10 mm, I cannot say that it is commercially successful. For instance, Ford sells a lot more units than Ferarri, which is as far as that analogy goes.
 
I like my wondernine for backpacking. I can bring 17 rounds (in the pistol) and not have to worry about bringing another magazine along. I figure, if I still need more than 15-17 rounds, things have gone terribly, terribly wrong. But along those lines, I sold off my .40 and I was only about 2 months without a larger caliber and another one found it's way into my safe.

t-man
 
Sven,

You are missing the point. The very fact that there IS a question as to if you might need 17 rounds is, to most reasonable people, reason enough to HAVE 17 rounds at the ready. Aside from a moronic law, there is no disadvantage to having more rounds...so why not?

Assume you have a Glock 21 with 10-round mags. Prebans hold..what, 13 rounds? You could say "it's only three more rounds", but there is ALWAYS a chance that you may need those last three rounds to save your life.

We can argue about the probability all day long, but the fact remains there a chance DOES exist, and for that very reason, one would want as many rounds as possible. The law is nonsensical and just plain wrong, and you are bringing the sheeple mentality to the table when you just roll over and accept the law "just because". I am not trying to start a fight or anything, but that mentality is exactly why California has gone down the toilet.
 
Well, I have a high-capacity mag in the gun on my hip right now.

Instead of the factory 7-rounder, I'm using a Wilson 8-rounder.

Of course, there's only seven rounds actually in the magazine, but still...
 
Think of it this way -

I have never been in an auto accident. If I had never once worn a seatbelt, I would be in just as good of shape today as I am having worn my seatbelt every single time. I also have airbags in my car that I don't use.

Now, we could poll every person on this website. Assume NOBODY has EVER needed their seatbelt or airbags...should we just not bother with them? Should we argue over HOW MUCH you MIGHT need them?

You might need them, period. There is simply nothing to argue.

The extra rounds in your full-cap magazines don't cause crime, they don't cost you any more (or, rather, they didn't before they were outlawed), they aren't detrimental in any way to a gun that was DESIGNED to carry those rounds.

So I may never need it. Then again, I might. I want as many rounds as possible. If you don't, that's your risk. Don't tell me that I can't have them - and don't support legislature that tells me I can't have them.

Hell, you may never need a gun, period. Does that mean you shouldn't bother keeping one at the ready in your house?
 
High capacity magazines beneficial? Yes, during IPSC matches. Otherwise, I tend to stick to five rounds of 357.
 
Col. Cooper, from his writings, considers 9x19 a barely adequate service round at best. Whether or not you agree is up to you, but that's his stand on the matter. He has, however, been a fan of the CZ comany, and rightly so; they make good guns.

From reading his back writings, he had had hopes that the CZ-97 woudl be his "ideal" service pistol, with a more slender butt than the Government Model. He seems to have been disappointed in what the CZ-97 turned out to be, a big fat double stack .45 (truth, it is a bit on the large side for carry).
 
Sounds like your both right. It aint none of their damn business how many rounds you got. And even with the ban, it dont really matter (practically speaking.) Pistols are for close range defense and its usually over pretty quick so rounds in the teens dont usually matter.

I own a High-cap pistol (G-21), and a Low-cap pistol (1911 style .45). Which one do I have on my hip right now? The Colt. It was The Colt that was with me when the two black men followed me & pregnant wife off bus to strongarm us. The lowcap prevailed. Not a shot fired. But it DID stop the action. It was the Colt with me when the dog attacked me, one single shot in the ground turned him off the attack.

High cap mags are comforting but not usually not necessary in my few experiances. In fact one of the back of my mind ideas that I'd like to do someday is to get a stainless series 80 Officers Model and put a 5" Bar-Sto bbl. in it, left big on the end and magna-ported. That would be a sweet carry piece! The even shorter magazine of the Officers model (6+1) wouldn't faze me, but I gots to have my barrel length!

Of course I always carry a reload but chances are, if you got to reload at all, you likely need a transition.

"The only reason one fights with a pistol, is to get back to the rifle that you shouldn't have laid down in the first place"

Clint Smith from Thunder Ranch said that....Oh, but I do have a Hi-Cap 8-rnd Wilson-Rogers mag in my Colt right now. Does that count?:D
 
Reasons not to have a high cap mag in a major caliber:

They make the grip too fat for some people to shoot well.

They make the gun heavier, possibly affecting balance, and also harder to carry and conceal.

They can make the gun harder to shoot because the grip is too big, or the trigger reach is longer.

They can instill a false sense of confidence that the operator can keep shooting wildly and eventually hit something because of an "unlimited" supply of ammo.

Most single stack guns, especially in a major caliber, are thinner than their double stack counterparts. They can be smaller and lighter and easier for some to grip and therefore shoot accurately.

Why shoot a bolt action hunting rifle instead of a full-auto? One shot, one kill. I know, self defense is very different than hunting, but placed shots are more likely to be effective than pray & spray. Lower mag capacities might tend to produce more disciplined attitudes toward shooting.

That being said, I carry 10+1 rounds of .40 in the gun, with a back-up spare mag holding 12 rounds of .40 S&W. The gun fits my hand fine and I can shoot it accurately, it is small and sufficiently lightweight so it is easy to carry and conceal in Thunderwear. Good compromise for me. I gave up a Beretta 92, a Browning Hi-Power and a ParaOrdnance P-12 (strong side IWB) to go to the Kel-tec P-40. But frankly, I do not want to go to a Kahr or similar gun with 6+1 when a higher capacity is available.

The capacity is not as important as what you can do with it in a hurry, and that you always have it with you. As a citizen who carries concealed, most high capacity (13-17 rounds) major caliber handguns do not conceal well or carry comfortably for me. If they do for you, or if you do not have to carry concealed, I say carry as much as you might ever need!

All you have to do is reasonably justify what works for you, and you are right. Just be careful not to assume that only what works for you is right for everyone. Personally, I still would not want to be one of eight guys facing a competent .45 operator with 7 rounds in his gun. Do ya feel lucky today? CB3
 
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