My intention was not at all to argue or question its suitability, just to garner some real-world experience and insights.
I can see however, that my assumption of needing a bigger gun could have implied a criticism.
Hard Choice
- Thread starter Roamin_Wade
- Start date
I can see however, that my assumption of needing a bigger gun could have implied a criticism.
Brian, I've posted that video as well and agree in the right situations a .243 will work well on elk. I do disagree with that it is very uncommon to find anyone carrying a .243 Win while hunting elk. There is no statistics to prove your claim true, nor to prove it's not true. However, in over 20 years of hunting elk I've never met anyone afield carrying one on an elk hunt other than my cousin as that was the only rifle he managed to keep in his divorce.
Also to put that video into context the guy doing all the talking was John Burns. John was one of the founding members of "Best of the West", specializing in long range hunting. This video was one he posted on several forums promoting his company Graybull Precision who built specialty long range hunting rifles. So that was a custom rifle using faster than factory twist barrel allowing the use of Berger 105 hunting VLD bullets that make a 700 yard shot easier than what can be accomplished with the standard factory twist .243 Win.
I to believe that the .243 Win is capable of cleanly taking elk. In my experience its use on elk is far from common. There are a lot more capable elk cartridges that won't beat "women and children" up so much they feel the need to use it for elk. Your 7-08 would be high on the list of those.
Also to put that video into context the guy doing all the talking was John Burns. John was one of the founding members of "Best of the West", specializing in long range hunting. This video was one he posted on several forums promoting his company Graybull Precision who built specialty long range hunting rifles. So that was a custom rifle using faster than factory twist barrel allowing the use of Berger 105 hunting VLD bullets that make a 700 yard shot easier than what can be accomplished with the standard factory twist .243 Win.
I to believe that the .243 Win is capable of cleanly taking elk. In my experience its use on elk is far from common. There are a lot more capable elk cartridges that won't beat "women and children" up so much they feel the need to use it for elk. Your 7-08 would be high on the list of those.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Tallest said:
No sir, I apologize it that came across as combative. I didn't take your question that way and didn't mean to respond that way.... I may have been a tad "preemptive" about the anticipated response of others.
bamaranger
New member
interesting
Gotta tell you, I'm surprised at the number of positive, .308 responses. That said, the .308 would be my choice too. But.....
Over the years, helping at a check station, membership in a shooting club and several hunting leases, and listening to gun shop gossip, the .270 seems far more established and popular. As an example, I ran up on two Savage Axis rifles w/ budget scope, this month on a close out for $199 dollars. I just couldn't rationalize buying one, but it seemed a heck of a deal, so I called a pal who buys, sells and swaps a bunch of guns. He didn't want one, said he has a hard time moving .308's. I'd put the number of .270's I see in the woods, v. .308 at 4:1, and if you add the '06, maybe 8:1 or higher.
Similarly, I've had folks who were not "students" of the rifle, tell me that the .308 was just "too small" meaning the case, I guess. Small(er) case than the '06 or .270, ...TO THEM....., means less powder, means less power, and they don't want it. Never mind velocities, operating pressures, barrel lengths etc, the .308 looks softer than the '06 and the .270 and they aren't having it.
I started with a .308 (well, almost, I hunted a season with a .30 Rem, who all has heard of that old number!!!) in 1971, and likely have killed more deer with it than any other caliber I own. Part of that is because I became a bow snob for quite a few years,and since then, have hunted a lot of different calibers and been satisfied. But ....IF..... limited to one for whitetails,under 250yds, it would be a .308. Anybody that has shot one much knows it gives nothing up to the '06 afield with midrange deer bullets and all the variations rifle to rifle, , At 250 yds, nothing really trajectory wise either, concerning the .270. And the .308 is much more accommodating of a short carbine barrel, flash and blast and possibly velocity wise. Too, in a true short action, apples to apples, it will be a bit lighter than the long action calibers.
But I sure am surprised we are not seeing more .270 comments. Ol'Jack must be rolling in his grave!!!
Gotta tell you, I'm surprised at the number of positive, .308 responses. That said, the .308 would be my choice too. But.....
Over the years, helping at a check station, membership in a shooting club and several hunting leases, and listening to gun shop gossip, the .270 seems far more established and popular. As an example, I ran up on two Savage Axis rifles w/ budget scope, this month on a close out for $199 dollars. I just couldn't rationalize buying one, but it seemed a heck of a deal, so I called a pal who buys, sells and swaps a bunch of guns. He didn't want one, said he has a hard time moving .308's. I'd put the number of .270's I see in the woods, v. .308 at 4:1, and if you add the '06, maybe 8:1 or higher.
Similarly, I've had folks who were not "students" of the rifle, tell me that the .308 was just "too small" meaning the case, I guess. Small(er) case than the '06 or .270, ...TO THEM....., means less powder, means less power, and they don't want it. Never mind velocities, operating pressures, barrel lengths etc, the .308 looks softer than the '06 and the .270 and they aren't having it.
I started with a .308 (well, almost, I hunted a season with a .30 Rem, who all has heard of that old number!!!) in 1971, and likely have killed more deer with it than any other caliber I own. Part of that is because I became a bow snob for quite a few years,and since then, have hunted a lot of different calibers and been satisfied. But ....IF..... limited to one for whitetails,under 250yds, it would be a .308. Anybody that has shot one much knows it gives nothing up to the '06 afield with midrange deer bullets and all the variations rifle to rifle, , At 250 yds, nothing really trajectory wise either, concerning the .270. And the .308 is much more accommodating of a short carbine barrel, flash and blast and possibly velocity wise. Too, in a true short action, apples to apples, it will be a bit lighter than the long action calibers.
But I sure am surprised we are not seeing more .270 comments. Ol'Jack must be rolling in his grave!!!
Don Dayacetah
New member
Options for reloading and even bullet weight selection at the average store gives you
a lot of choices which are more difficult to find in other calibers. Maybe it depends on if you hunt just one animal type or a variety of game. For somebody who hunts a variety of game at different distances, you have a lot of room to work, with 30.06.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
As long as it's about whitetails, I'd likely stay with my .243. I've tagged a couple of dozen bang-flops with mine. 
jackstrawIII
New member
Ditto.
Ps. Happy to see all the love for the 7mm08. I'd pick that one if it was on your list.
Roamin_Wade
Moderator
You know, I don’t recall ever hearing about the 7mm-08 until about 15 years ago. What is another round that is comparable to the 7mm-08?
rodwhaincamo
New member
The .260 Rem is a necked down version using the .308 Win case. Also ballistically the 7x57mm Mauser is close enough.
7mm/.284, to me, is just about ideal as it’s a common mid sized caliber with plenty of bullet weight and style offerings that happen to have high BC’s for their sectional density.
And I like the short action type cases as they are efficient and don’t require the longer action. Add to that the Ackley Improved and it produces roughly the ‘06 ballistics with slightly less powder and pressure. And the chamber will still cycle standard ammo blowing out the case to produce the AI. Of course if you aren’t a handloader or don’t know of one who will load this is obsolete.
7mm/.284, to me, is just about ideal as it’s a common mid sized caliber with plenty of bullet weight and style offerings that happen to have high BC’s for their sectional density.
And I like the short action type cases as they are efficient and don’t require the longer action. Add to that the Ackley Improved and it produces roughly the ‘06 ballistics with slightly less powder and pressure. And the chamber will still cycle standard ammo blowing out the case to produce the AI. Of course if you aren’t a handloader or don’t know of one who will load this is obsolete.
" Ammo is everywhere, including that WalMart on your way out past city limits at 5 AM on opening day."
Dunno if it's just local or with all Walmart stores but the one I go to stops all firearm ad ammo sales at 9PM and opens up again at IIRC 9AM. Might be store policy or maybe state or city ordinance.
Paul B.
Dunno if it's just local or with all Walmart stores but the one I go to stops all firearm ad ammo sales at 9PM and opens up again at IIRC 9AM. Might be store policy or maybe state or city ordinance.
Paul B.
Well I've owned or shot every on of the OP's options except the Creedmore and would probably shoot one more out of curiosity to see what the fuss is about.
With that said, I'd look at the .308. Not saying that's my first choice but that along with the 30-06 and .270 will probably be the easiest to find should one need a resupply.
Interesting fact; a few years back I ran a velocity test with Winchester 180 gr. Powerpoint ammo in the .308 Win. and 30-06. From the 22" barreled .308 and 30-06, velocity was almost exactly the same. Combine average 2610 FPS. I also ran some of the 06 through a 24" and 26" barrel and the only one that came close to factory advertised speed was from the 26" barrel.
I do find the 7-08 interesting but no desire to buy one as I have a nice modern 7x57 and my hand loads duplicate anything the 7-08 can do. For those questioning the 7-08 on elk, if my outfitter gets a cancellation for this years hunt, we'll see what a 7x57 pushing a 150 gr. Nosler Partition will do on an elk.
FWIW, the late gun writer John Wooters favorite whitetail rifle was a Mannlicher stocked Sako in .308 Win. I forget which weight bullet he favored but I think it was the 150 gr. Nosler.
Paul B.
With that said, I'd look at the .308. Not saying that's my first choice but that along with the 30-06 and .270 will probably be the easiest to find should one need a resupply.
Interesting fact; a few years back I ran a velocity test with Winchester 180 gr. Powerpoint ammo in the .308 Win. and 30-06. From the 22" barreled .308 and 30-06, velocity was almost exactly the same. Combine average 2610 FPS. I also ran some of the 06 through a 24" and 26" barrel and the only one that came close to factory advertised speed was from the 26" barrel.
I do find the 7-08 interesting but no desire to buy one as I have a nice modern 7x57 and my hand loads duplicate anything the 7-08 can do. For those questioning the 7-08 on elk, if my outfitter gets a cancellation for this years hunt, we'll see what a 7x57 pushing a 150 gr. Nosler Partition will do on an elk.
FWIW, the late gun writer John Wooters favorite whitetail rifle was a Mannlicher stocked Sako in .308 Win. I forget which weight bullet he favored but I think it was the 150 gr. Nosler.
Paul B.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Roamin Wade, in the common deer load, the 7mm08 is a .308 with a ten-grains lighter bullet. Any betterment in coefficient is meaningless inside of 300 yards.
rodwhaincamo
New member
“Any betterment in coefficient is meaningless inside of 300 yards.”
While true it’s still better, and not by a little.
While true it’s still better, and not by a little.
rodwhaincamo
New member
Watering the grass after I mowed and found it becomes windy once you bring pen and paper outside. Need SWMBO to come out with pen and paper next time I mow as it was quite still and Texas hot while I was mowing. Enough jabber...
I haven’t looked at commercial ballistics in several years and found them not quite so easy and straight forward as before. I ended up using Remington ammo ballistics despite the fact I’ve always been preferential to Hornady.
The 7mm/.284” 140 grn bullet has virtually the identical sectional density (SD) as the 7.62mm/.308” 165 grn bullet. These are what I compared in an identical style of bullet (AccuTip) one might choose for whitetail. However one might note that to look for a higher sectional density wanting to hunt bigger and tougher game one generally bottoms out in .308 with a 180 grn bullet at .271 whereas working with a 7mm and even just a 162 grn bullet we’ve exceeded that at .287. And maybe to some these differences don’t mean much, and I must admit that I love efficiency and typically strive for it so even a little bit means something to me:
Back to the subject of a typical apples to apples (comparing SD and what’s thought to be a significant indicator for penetration capability):
My ballistics calculator is set for 900’ as that’s typical for the places I hunt. My numbers are for the muzzle, 100 yds, 200 yds, followed by 250 yds, and then 300 yds.
For the 140 grn AT with a SD of .246+ (number for 139 grn bullet) Remington gives a muzzle velocity of 2860 fps. I give the trajectory and then 90* wind drift.
2.1” 0.0” -3.1” -7.7” 0.7” 2.7” 4.3” 6.3”
For the 165 grn AT a velocity of 2670 fps is given. Standard velocities for both. The SD is .248 for a 165 grn bullet. Can’t get much similar, thought the 154 vs the 180 is quite close too, but Hornady loves their SuperPerformance loadings and I don’t know how similar that is to the well established “old school” loads. The .308 Win:
2.5” 0.0” -3.7” -9.2” 0.8” 3.3” 5.2” 7.6”
So within 250 yds the differences aren’t that much, though there still is an advantage. And for me wind drift is a very big deal. I can judge distance well enough for something like this. But the wind? Not so much. Can you tell me if this is a 10 mph breeze or 15? Or was it maybe just 7? At 250 yds it’s just around an inch, but if you were already a couple of inches off or the deer moved just that few. I like things to be in my favor how insignificant it may seem I suppose. Did I mention I love things to be efficient?
But I added 300 yds. What if it were just a bit further? As you can see by the numbers the drop is 1.5” less and the wind drift is 1.3” less. Maybe that’s not tremendous, but if I were choosing one cartridge period I’d prefer better.
Now the 7mm/.284” bullets in similar SD configurations may show an advantage there’s the slight advantage to the .30 cal with its mass. But then the 7x57mm has proven to take on quite the range of huge/dangerous animals. And I wouldn’t hunt elephant with even the 7mm-08 AI, but apparently it will do the job if you can do yours and close up at that. Not for me I must say as I’d opt for something a LOT bigger and with backup. But I’m not bad a$$ like some of those before us.
I haven’t looked at commercial ballistics in several years and found them not quite so easy and straight forward as before. I ended up using Remington ammo ballistics despite the fact I’ve always been preferential to Hornady.
The 7mm/.284” 140 grn bullet has virtually the identical sectional density (SD) as the 7.62mm/.308” 165 grn bullet. These are what I compared in an identical style of bullet (AccuTip) one might choose for whitetail. However one might note that to look for a higher sectional density wanting to hunt bigger and tougher game one generally bottoms out in .308 with a 180 grn bullet at .271 whereas working with a 7mm and even just a 162 grn bullet we’ve exceeded that at .287. And maybe to some these differences don’t mean much, and I must admit that I love efficiency and typically strive for it so even a little bit means something to me:
Back to the subject of a typical apples to apples (comparing SD and what’s thought to be a significant indicator for penetration capability):
My ballistics calculator is set for 900’ as that’s typical for the places I hunt. My numbers are for the muzzle, 100 yds, 200 yds, followed by 250 yds, and then 300 yds.
For the 140 grn AT with a SD of .246+ (number for 139 grn bullet) Remington gives a muzzle velocity of 2860 fps. I give the trajectory and then 90* wind drift.
2.1” 0.0” -3.1” -7.7” 0.7” 2.7” 4.3” 6.3”
For the 165 grn AT a velocity of 2670 fps is given. Standard velocities for both. The SD is .248 for a 165 grn bullet. Can’t get much similar, thought the 154 vs the 180 is quite close too, but Hornady loves their SuperPerformance loadings and I don’t know how similar that is to the well established “old school” loads. The .308 Win:
2.5” 0.0” -3.7” -9.2” 0.8” 3.3” 5.2” 7.6”
So within 250 yds the differences aren’t that much, though there still is an advantage. And for me wind drift is a very big deal. I can judge distance well enough for something like this. But the wind? Not so much. Can you tell me if this is a 10 mph breeze or 15? Or was it maybe just 7? At 250 yds it’s just around an inch, but if you were already a couple of inches off or the deer moved just that few. I like things to be in my favor how insignificant it may seem I suppose. Did I mention I love things to be efficient?
But I added 300 yds. What if it were just a bit further? As you can see by the numbers the drop is 1.5” less and the wind drift is 1.3” less. Maybe that’s not tremendous, but if I were choosing one cartridge period I’d prefer better.
Now the 7mm/.284” bullets in similar SD configurations may show an advantage there’s the slight advantage to the .30 cal with its mass. But then the 7x57mm has proven to take on quite the range of huge/dangerous animals. And I wouldn’t hunt elephant with even the 7mm-08 AI, but apparently it will do the job if you can do yours and close up at that. Not for me I must say as I’d opt for something a LOT bigger and with backup. But I’m not bad a$$ like some of those before us.
rodwhaincamo
New member
Oh, and there seems to be a significant recoil difference between the 7mm-08 and .308 Win for those who count those numbers.
In essence a lower recoiling cartridge capable of the same penetration but with a bit flatter trajectory and better wind drift numbers. Win win in my opinion, and yet still capable of large game.
And this is a big part of why I feel the 7mm-08 Rem is the most ideal cartridge. Unfortunately it still isn’t extremely popular and commercial ammo doesn’t give many options (and possibly none in some places) in stores.
Commercial ammo only I’d go with the .308 Win (and still Ackley Improve it for .30-06 Sprg performance). But I’d seriously compare it to .260 Rem as well (and AI that too), especially if one were considering only medium game (I wouldn’t because I know how good elk taste and would push for and jump on an opportunity):
In essence a lower recoiling cartridge capable of the same penetration but with a bit flatter trajectory and better wind drift numbers. Win win in my opinion, and yet still capable of large game.
And this is a big part of why I feel the 7mm-08 Rem is the most ideal cartridge. Unfortunately it still isn’t extremely popular and commercial ammo doesn’t give many options (and possibly none in some places) in stores.
Commercial ammo only I’d go with the .308 Win (and still Ackley Improve it for .30-06 Sprg performance). But I’d seriously compare it to .260 Rem as well (and AI that too), especially if one were considering only medium game (I wouldn’t because I know how good elk taste and would push for and jump on an opportunity):
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FrankenMauser
New member
Recoil...
Very subjective.
Everyone perceives it differently.
(I'm not picking on you rodwhaincamo.)
Have three people shoot the same rifle, and they'll all have different opinions of the recoil. Ergonomics are a big factor, of course.
Even the same person can 'feel' things differently on different days, even if shooting with exactly the same equipment, position, and ammunition.
I have two Ruger 77 Mk IIs. One is a 7x57mm. One is a .270 Win. Same original factory configuration, except the .270 has a laminate stock.
Some days, the .270 feels brutal, while the 7x57 feels harsh but not terrible. -- Which is roughly what you'd expect from that cartridge comparison.
Other days, the .270 feels just fine, and the 7x57 feels nasty.
Then, some days (like yesterday), the .270 feels like a pussycat, and the 7x57 feels exactly the same.
Phases of the moon. What you had for breakfast. Hydration level. Irritation level. Caffeine level. And whether or not Jupiter is in the Second House. ...Seemingly all are things that temporarily influence one's perception of recoil.
(I don't consider the difference between 7mm-08 and .308 Win to be notable, for the record. The difference is generally less than 1 lb-ft for similar-weight bullets.)
rodwhaincamo
New member
And I don’t truly understand all that’s involved and why but it’s all too often said the short action (mostly comparing .308 cartridges vs ‘06 cartridges) cartridges are more inherently accurate. I’ll take that every time too.
rodwhaincamo
New member
Regardless how one might feel, from the same rifle (weight being the same) a 7mm-08 with a 140 grn bullet will have a milder recoil than a .308 with a 165 grns bullet every time. Apples to apples. And recoil, for some reason, has been an issue with what I wouldn’t have called an issue, and I’m not a big guy at 5’8” and 160.