Hapkido vs Aikido

TKD

Guys,

Be aware that there are TWO distinct schools of Tae Kwon Do out there. What almost everyone knows about today is the World TaeKwon-Do Federation (WTF). The other is the Interntional TaeKwon-Do Federation (ITF). The reason for the existance of two major camps is strictly political, but why "most serious martial artists" look down on TKD is because of the changes made to the systems by the WTF in order to gain acceptance as an Olympic "sport".

The ITF was founded and is still led by the man known as the
"father" of TKD: General Choi, Hong Hi. General Choi coined the phrase "Tae Kwon Do' (literally "hand and foot art") to describe a synthesis by five major schools of Korean striking arts in the mid-1950s. General Choi penned the original treatise on the modern art (of which I still have an old tattered copy). General Choi spent severa years in Japan as a young man and studied Shotokan karate. The "official" TKD of the fifties includes "kata" from Okinawan styles. (The first kata I learned from my Shorin-Ryu instructor, naihanchi-shodan, is in the textbook!)

My first three TKD instructors taught ITF-style TaeKwon-Do, and it is brutally effective. We spent a good portion of each night doing conditioning drills blocking full-power kicks and punches. Talk about bruises! BUT... we also spent a signigicant amount of time learning to "slip" punches and using an opponent's momentum against them. I have recently spent some time in a local Kyokushin-kai dojo. My 28 year old TKD is 95% identical to the Kyokshin they are teaching! (At a seminar several years ago, a group of us (ahem) "experienced" yudansha were discussing how similar all styles of "hard" martial arts were once you got past the basics. As Bruce Lee is quoted as having said, (and I paraphrase)
"Before I started in the martial arts, a kick was just a kick and a punch was just a punch. Then I found that a kick was more than just a kick and a punch was more than just a punch. After I really learned the martial arts, I found out that a kick is just a kick and a punch is just a punch."

Bottom line, guys. Find a reputable sensei, sabumnim, or instructor in the type of system you want (hard or soft) and work at it. The system doesn't make you effective, you do. (kinda like it's not the gun, it's how well you use it, right???)

Regards,
Mike Slisher

BTW, I started in Shorin-Ryu in March of 1973, and have been active pretty much since then in MA. Third degree in TKD, experience without Dan rankings in Shorin-Ryu, Aikido, and Ueichi-Ryu, and Kyokushin-kai.
 
That's because Tae Kwon Do does NOT come from "five major schools of Korean striking arts." It comes from Shotokan.

Funny thing, "the founder" of Kyokushin was also an ethnic Korean who learned Shotokan.

As much as Korean revisionists love to represent Tae Kwon Do (of any political hue) as native, the fact remains that these are Japanese-originated systems.

"Real" Korean systems, which were mainly based on Chinese styles, mostly died out during the Japanese occupation.

The difference between ITF and WTF is really miniscule when you compare either to, say, Muay Thai.

Skorzeny
 
FYI, as best as I can recall, Japan has no real home grown striking systems. Even Shotokan, the "quintessential" Japanese Karate, was introduced to the islands by an Okinawan national, Gichin Funakoshi.

:o :eek:
 
Uh, Despite whay Skorzeny says, "Slish" is mostly right.

I have a 1str Dan in ITF style TKD. And although I haven't necessarily heard that TKD is a synthesis of "5 different styles" two things are documentable (and at least accepted). 1. Is that Choi Hong Hi, the founder of modern TKD studied the korean art of Taekyon. 2. Is that Choi also achieved at least a 2nd degree in Shotokan while studying in a University in Japan.

This explains the Japanese link in TKD and does not deny or ignore the similarities between Japanese arts and TKD. But it also means there is a legitimate link between TKD and traditional Korean arts. Now there has also been a continual change and influence in TKD from both traditional Korean arts as well as other outside influences.

So TKD is neither a "thousand year old traditional Korean art" or a made up art from other sources. Actually, It's both!

Matt Wallis
 
I seem to remember that shotokan karate was introduced to Japan in either 1916 or 1922, depending on who you talk to, from Okinawa.

The Okinawa systems (I think, better check me on this) were a combination of Chinese and homegrown arts.

LawDog
 
First of all, my apologies for lumping Okinawa with Japan. What I meant by "Japan" was today's "by-the-map" Japan, rather than "cultural" Japan that excludes the Ryukyus.

In my defense, while Funakoshi Giichin "brought" Okinawan Karate to Honshu, Shotokan is now properly considered "Japanese" assimiliated Karate system by the Japanese while distinctively Okinawan systems still remain independent.

I was wondering when someone was going to bring up "Tae Kyon." The funny thing about this mythical art is that it is almost without any historical documentation or reference in Korean historical texts. Even if such a thing existed, it is IMPOSSIBLE that it was a system of "a thousand years" or General Choi learned it.

What little actual Korean historical documentation shows about "ancient" Korean systems is largely transmissions of Chinese manual of man-at-arms exercises.

BTW, I lived in Japan and Korea for over 10+ years. During those times, I studied local fighting systems (not just martial arts) extensively (I also interviewed and documented conversations with notable military figures, but that's another story).

Lastly, it is very true that almost all Japanese systems owe their lineage to Chinese transmission. But the Japanese by and large acknowledge that origin whereas the Koreans, well, don't. Some Korean Yudo schools still teach that Yudo comes from Korean "Yusul" (Jujutsu), rather than Japanese Judo.

Skorzeny
 
(Ian,)

I've always understood "hard" and "soft" to be related to the amount of tension the user carried. There are hard and soft Chinese "Kung Fu" styles, for instance...
 
Spectre, now that I think about it, you are probably correct. Somewhere along the way, I wound up thinking of the striking arts as being 'hard' styles and the grappling as being 'soft' styles.

I should probably work on that. :D

LawDog
 
sigh...

Much as I hate to do it, I have to agree with Skorzeny ;).

Koreans, in their quest to make TKD uniquely Korean, have created history where there is no verifiable link to the past. There have been martial arts in Korea for quite some time, dating back to at least the Three Kingdoms period (about 1300 years ago), but there is no verifiable link between any modern Korean art and any ancient Korean martial art. There's not one single example that I know of a verifiable instructor-student lineage that goes back further than WWII.

In WWII, the practice of martial arts in Japanese occupied territories was strictly controlled. As a result, a lot of the native martial arts died out, or were at least modified/blended with Japanese arts so as to become unrecognizable as separate martial arts.

BTW, don't buy the ITF's version of TKD history either. General Choi was not the "father of TKD" - he just suggested the name. At the time (1956) it was called TaeSooDo, or Korean Karate and consisted of a loose grouping of schools or "Kwans" - Choi was just one head of a Kwan. The Kwans (there were 7 original, then 2 more added a few years later - all but 3 have since disbanded) were/are the equivelant of the Japanese "Ryus" - not very different in terms of technique, but differing philosophies/emphasis when it came to applications. If anyone is the father of TKD, it's Funakoshi. Strangely, I, like my instructor before me (who's been in TKD since 1963 - only 7 years since there WAS a TKD), was taught the same forms Funakoshi taught in Japan. While the kicks are unique, the stances, hand techniques, blocks, the original forms, etc. all come from Shotokan Karate. His instructor, Dr. Dae Shik Kim, originally taught "karate" when he came to the U.S.

FWIW, Dr. Kim was good friends with another Korean, Mas Oyama. Whenever Oyama was in the southeastern US, he stayed with Dr. Kim at his house. Oyama (along with others, like Koichi Tohei) also taught several classes/seminars for Dr. Kim's students. I know of at least one TKD black belt who was offered rank in Kyokushin karate by Mas Oyama himself...
 
Skorzeny:
As to Mas Oyama's Japanese Karate connection: In Jay Glucks' book, "Zen Combat" , which I believe was written sometime in the '50s and for which he extensively interviewed Oyama (Glucks was studying under Oyama at the time), Oyama acknowledges being influenced by Goju Ryu and Gogen Yamaguchi, but I don't recall his mentioning any ties to Shotokan. I could be wrong on this because it's been at least 15 yrs. since I read that book. If I am, I'd be interested in info regarding Oyama's ties to Shotokan, just to get a clearer picture.
 
Oyama was a student of Funakoshi. After Mas Oyama got himself into some trouble (he was a bit of a thug in his younger days), Funakoshi refused to teach him. Oyama later remarked something to the effect that Funakoshi was a good teacher for children.
 
Danger Dave:

Thanks for the validation!:)

Why is it so hard for others to agree with? Is it the substance or my repulsive personality?

BTW, we should all remember that Mas Oyama was a colonial Japanese name for the ethnic Korean. I believe he had a Korean name, which escapes me at the moment.

Skorzeny
 
I think his Korean name was Yong I-Choi. He adopted the name 'Oyama' to honour the Japanese family who took him in and befriended him when he came to Tokyo for his college education.

Mas Oyama studied Chinese kempo while still in Korea, until he travelled to Japan to study at the Takushoku University. In addition to his college studies, Oyama furthered his martial arts studies under Gichin Funakoshi, reaching the rank of nidan under sensei Funakoshi.

Once his training was over with sensei Funakoshi, for whatever reason, Mas Oyama studied gojo-ryu under a man named Sodeiju. Reaching, if I remember correctly, a 4th dan.

Mas Oyama founded his own school of karate called Kyokushin.

I'm not sure where the connection between Mas Oyama and tae kwon do started, but Mas Oyama was very definently a karate stylist.

LawDog
 
Skoonz, to get back on topic, you need to learn a ground fighting art. You already have a some experience with a stand up striking art. What happens when the fight goes to the ground? Take Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Learn how to fight on the ground. Standing joint locks in Aikido and Hapkido are pure fantasy. Aikido is pure bull**** for pseudo spiritual idiots. Anyone who takes it for self defense deserves to get the crap beat out of them. It does not work in real life. The fight will be either two guys striking on their feet or it will go to the ground. There is no in between.

After you learn to groundfight, take an edged weapons class. Before one of my BJJ classes, I asked a guy who was a Nidan in Yosinkai Aikido to show me what he could do to defend against my knife (a rolled up piece of paper). For the next 5 minutes, I cut his arms, I cut his legs, I stabbed him in the chest. I was not ready to give him one of those big, overcomitted attacks he was used to. It was so pathetic. We finally stopped. The man was bummed out. I figure I did him, and you, a favor by showing him what a waste of time that crap is for self defense.
 
So Dave, don't hold back---tell us how you really feel about Aikido....

Seriously, I agree with you about the edged weapons training being useful. Knives are a definite threat on the street. My background is mostly in Filipino martial arts so we train with a lot of different weapons. Edged weapons training helps you to recognize the severity of the threat and the difficulty in addressing it.
 
Skorzeny,
Nah, there's just something confrontational about your posts. Nothing against you, it's just that they make me want to argue with you even when I agree... I dunno, it's weird.

Lawdog,
The story I heard was that Oyama got into a fight with a knife-weilding Yakuza. Oyama punched him in the head, killing him. After that, Funakoshi, a mild mannered man, (IIRC, he was chosen as Okinawa's "karate emissary" to Japan largely because of his even temperment - he was by profession a school teacher), refused to continue to teach Oyama. Then Oyama went to the mountains to meditate & train, the end result of which was Kyokushin...

Dave3006,
I have seen some amazing aikidoka, but I think they were, well, exceptional. I wouldn't dismiss aikido outright, but I think it takes an incredible level of skill to become effective. And the right mental makeup - it's a rare person that can remain calm & relaxed (which is largely required for aikido to work) in the face of someone who's trying to take your head off for real...

BTW, I think if you did your same drill against most martial artists, you would be stunned at how similar the results would be.
 
Skorzeny:
Whoa, man!! I wasn't arguing that you were wrong about Oyama training in Shotokan, just that I'd never heard of him doing so :confused:. Know I've got an interesting tidbit of info there. :)
 
The funniest part of my Aikido vs. the rookie with a knife drill was that my entire edged weapons training consists of one Gunsite knife video. It emphasized attacking the exposed limbs (hands, arms, legs) with small uncommitted attacks. I never gave the Aikido guy an opening to unbalance me. It was so easy. It made me really respect ANYONE with a knife.

I do not apologize for attacking the validity of some martial arts. They are not all equal. Some are based on faulty premises. Such as the premise that a person can stay relaxed and centered in a violent struggle. It goes against human nature. You have to pick an art that acknowledges human biological responses to adrenaline and emphasizes simple, non-complex techniques. You loose coordination, your fine motor skills are shot, you tunnel vision, and you (and your opponent) do not feel pain as much. You have to plan for these things. Don't fall for the all the Asian mumbo jumbo. I'll take a boxer over 5 Aikido guys any day.

KISS. Keep it simple stupid - because when you are under attack, you get really stupid.
 
One more story of the need to plan for natural human responses:

When you are getting hit in a fight, you will naturally attempt to clinch your opponent to get safe and regain composure.

- I studied Shotokan for 10 years. I made it to 1st Dan. I trained 6 days a week for 1-2 hours per day. I would not rate myself as great. Just decent. I stepped into a BJJ studio and the small little Brazilian and I put on some gloves and decided to test my Karate. Besides the fact that his boxing skills were better than my karate, everytime I started to get hit, I NATURALLY tried to grab and clinch him to stop the blows. The situation repeated itself several times. He would take me to the mat and all my Karate was worthless. It was the best lesson I ever learned.

When I explained this to my Sensei in karate, all he could say was that the fight should not have went to the mat. It did. It did repeatly. That was the stupidest statement I had ever heard. Talk about denying reality.

How much of your martial art denies reality? That is the question.
 
Dave3006, in my humble opinion all martial arts have their faulty premises -- even BJJ.

Part of becoming a martial artist is recognizing these faults and adapting your version of the style to minimize them.

LawDog
 
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