Hapkido vs Aikido
- Thread starter skoonz
- Start date
While I do understand what witzig is saying about boxers bouncing in the ring, boxers are quite effectual, as a rule. Somehow, I can't see a boxer "dancing" when confronted by punks on the street.
As far as one foot forward, one foot back, almost all stances *I* practice are like this. Since I can leap or run in any direction, I don't feel off balance...
As far as one foot forward, one foot back, almost all stances *I* practice are like this. Since I can leap or run in any direction, I don't feel off balance...
AdrenalineJunky
New member
Well...
"As for the effectiveness of Hapkido kicks and punches, well, I regard them to be about as realistic as Tae Kwon Do kicks and punches.
Checkout a boxer or a Muay Thai fighter and see how their kicks and punches fare compared to Hapkido or Tae Kwon Do (or even Shotokan) kicks and punches.
Skorzeny"
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I can offer a little bit of personal experience here. I have been practicing Muay Thai for a while and, aside from a little Tai Chi, it's the only form I've practiced. When I was in training there weren't a lot of people in the class. In fact, our class lost several people to the local Tae Kwon Do class. In their defense, my teacher was very strict and expected you to work hard regardless of your age. He didn't teach us knee and elbow strikes until we'd reached the "advanced level." Anyway, since the nearest Thai school back then was in San Francisco (some 150 mi. away), we began sparring with the TKD class.
Now, these were bouts, we were competing, but we were fully padded(I was only thirteen at the time). The first guy I went up against was a couple years older than I was and about 15/20lbs heavier. He could do full splits and amazing aerial kicks. He had been to several M.A. camps and was working on his black belt. I was just shy of a year's training and was the most advanced student in the class. Needless to say, I was scared sheetless.
I very quickly found out that the TKD kicks he was throwing were much less effective than the round kicks and push kicks I was throwing. Same thing with punches. No throws or elbows(or head-butting) were allowed. It was very easy to tell that we were trained to fight in the ring and their training was more for "show." I don't think the word "show"is accurate, but it's the only word I could think of.
Thai fighting is very easy to master because there are very few offensive and defensive positions, and very few strikes. The difference is in conditioning your body to take high-impact strikes and returning with a high-impact strike. TKD students could do some visually amazing things, but they weren't conditioned to participate in "brutal" battles in the ring.
"As for the effectiveness of Hapkido kicks and punches, well, I regard them to be about as realistic as Tae Kwon Do kicks and punches.
Checkout a boxer or a Muay Thai fighter and see how their kicks and punches fare compared to Hapkido or Tae Kwon Do (or even Shotokan) kicks and punches.
Skorzeny"
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I can offer a little bit of personal experience here. I have been practicing Muay Thai for a while and, aside from a little Tai Chi, it's the only form I've practiced. When I was in training there weren't a lot of people in the class. In fact, our class lost several people to the local Tae Kwon Do class. In their defense, my teacher was very strict and expected you to work hard regardless of your age. He didn't teach us knee and elbow strikes until we'd reached the "advanced level." Anyway, since the nearest Thai school back then was in San Francisco (some 150 mi. away), we began sparring with the TKD class.
Now, these were bouts, we were competing, but we were fully padded(I was only thirteen at the time). The first guy I went up against was a couple years older than I was and about 15/20lbs heavier. He could do full splits and amazing aerial kicks. He had been to several M.A. camps and was working on his black belt. I was just shy of a year's training and was the most advanced student in the class. Needless to say, I was scared sheetless.
I very quickly found out that the TKD kicks he was throwing were much less effective than the round kicks and push kicks I was throwing. Same thing with punches. No throws or elbows(or head-butting) were allowed. It was very easy to tell that we were trained to fight in the ring and their training was more for "show." I don't think the word "show"is accurate, but it's the only word I could think of.
Thai fighting is very easy to master because there are very few offensive and defensive positions, and very few strikes. The difference is in conditioning your body to take high-impact strikes and returning with a high-impact strike. TKD students could do some visually amazing things, but they weren't conditioned to participate in "brutal" battles in the ring.
Adrenaline Junky:
I trained in Tae Kwon Do for over ten years both in the US and Korea. I earned my blackbelt at the Kukiwon (World Tae Kwon Do Federation HQ in Seoul). I thought that I knew a thing or two about kicking until I sparred with an amateur Muay Thai fighter.
He kicked me once in the thigh with his shin (which was alien to me) and I just about keeled over. Needless to say, the sparring was done. More experiences like this and further observations have convinced me that Muay Thai is without equal among Asian striking arts.
BTW, my favorite kicking technique is now the shin kick to the nerves on the major thigh. I taught this to my petite wife and anyone who gets hit by her once have trouble walking right for a while. Imagine what a full-size man can do with that!
Skorzeny
I trained in Tae Kwon Do for over ten years both in the US and Korea. I earned my blackbelt at the Kukiwon (World Tae Kwon Do Federation HQ in Seoul). I thought that I knew a thing or two about kicking until I sparred with an amateur Muay Thai fighter.
He kicked me once in the thigh with his shin (which was alien to me) and I just about keeled over. Needless to say, the sparring was done. More experiences like this and further observations have convinced me that Muay Thai is without equal among Asian striking arts.
BTW, my favorite kicking technique is now the shin kick to the nerves on the major thigh. I taught this to my petite wife and anyone who gets hit by her once have trouble walking right for a while. Imagine what a full-size man can do with that!
Skorzeny
RazorsEdge
New member
I would go with Hapkido. From what I've seen it's far more street oriented. Besides, in akido, you have to wear a dress.
9mmepiphany
New member
hmmm...street oriented? isn't what steven segal do full speed aikido? i don't think i would laugh at his "dress"
i'm not talking about his movie fight scenes. segal, like norris and lee, really can do those things in real life,
i'm not talking about his movie fight scenes. segal, like norris and lee, really can do those things in real life,
AdrenalineJunky
New member
"hmmm...street oriented? isn't what steven segal do full speed aikido? i don't think i would laugh at his "dress" "
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Being a big Steven Segal fan, I would have to say that someone with Segal's ability and knowledge would flatten your average Joe on the street. The thing about Aikido, which has left me with little motivation to learn the form, is that it's 98% defense oriented. There are very few offensive strikes and none of them, to my knowledge, lead to offensive combinations. This would make it very hard to initiate contact both, in the ring, and on the street. Also, Aikido, much like Tai Chi, is a glorified form of meditation emphasizing movement. Both are very beautiful art forms with graceful movements.
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"BTW, my favorite kicking technique is now the shin kick to the nerves on the major thigh. I taught this to my petite wife and anyone who gets hit by her once have trouble walking right for a while. Imagine what a full-size man can do with that!
Skorzeny"
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Yeah, I showed my Mom a few combos. Her favorite is: grab the shirt, right push kick to the groin, come up with the right knee to the face. With my Mom and my girlfriend I emphasized push kicks because they don't require a lot of skill, they're powerful and they can be done at close range.
I prefer close-range strikes. Round kicks are great for the ring and sparring, but in street brawls they can leave you uncovered and a bit off balance. They don't link well with combos and will serve you better as single strikes or combo finishers. Knees are my favorite. The logic is simple, you can't breathe, you can't fight. There are a lot of people who don't have any idea what to do when someone's that close to them. And they have little time to think about it when an array of knees, elbows, hooks, uppercuts and head-butts are being thrown at them. That's when you target the legs with round kicks and push kicks to the inner thigh.
Anyway, to answer the question, I think you'll have more fun with Hapkido. If you're interested in competition, there will probably be events other than ring fighting to participate in(weapons, kata, etc.). But, again, I have no experience in either form, so I'm making an assumption.
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Being a big Steven Segal fan, I would have to say that someone with Segal's ability and knowledge would flatten your average Joe on the street. The thing about Aikido, which has left me with little motivation to learn the form, is that it's 98% defense oriented. There are very few offensive strikes and none of them, to my knowledge, lead to offensive combinations. This would make it very hard to initiate contact both, in the ring, and on the street. Also, Aikido, much like Tai Chi, is a glorified form of meditation emphasizing movement. Both are very beautiful art forms with graceful movements.
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"BTW, my favorite kicking technique is now the shin kick to the nerves on the major thigh. I taught this to my petite wife and anyone who gets hit by her once have trouble walking right for a while. Imagine what a full-size man can do with that!
Skorzeny"
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Yeah, I showed my Mom a few combos. Her favorite is: grab the shirt, right push kick to the groin, come up with the right knee to the face. With my Mom and my girlfriend I emphasized push kicks because they don't require a lot of skill, they're powerful and they can be done at close range.
I prefer close-range strikes. Round kicks are great for the ring and sparring, but in street brawls they can leave you uncovered and a bit off balance. They don't link well with combos and will serve you better as single strikes or combo finishers. Knees are my favorite. The logic is simple, you can't breathe, you can't fight. There are a lot of people who don't have any idea what to do when someone's that close to them. And they have little time to think about it when an array of knees, elbows, hooks, uppercuts and head-butts are being thrown at them. That's when you target the legs with round kicks and push kicks to the inner thigh.
Anyway, to answer the question, I think you'll have more fun with Hapkido. If you're interested in competition, there will probably be events other than ring fighting to participate in(weapons, kata, etc.). But, again, I have no experience in either form, so I'm making an assumption.
Adrenaline Junky:
I hate to burst your bubbles, but Steven Seagal lives in a fantasy land of his own.
He was choked to complete unconsciousness by Gene "Judo" Lebell (who is over 60 years old) on a movie set. Seagal was rough handling the extras and stuntmen, who asked Lebell to talk to Seagal about it.
Lebell said something to the effect to Seagal that it is easy to throw around people who won't hit back. Seagal then told Lebell that he can get out of any holds. Lebell made a motion of choking him and Seagal grabbed Lebell's groin. Smiling, Lebell said something to the effect of "are we just playing or doing it for real?"
Seagal said "for real" at which point Lebell put him in a choke hold and poor Seagal passed out and relieved himself at the same time.
Afterwards, he fired everyone on the set and promised to sue anyone who divulged the whole sordid story. It got out though and has been verified by several who were there. Real tough guy, isn't he?
Skorzeny
I hate to burst your bubbles, but Steven Seagal lives in a fantasy land of his own.
He was choked to complete unconsciousness by Gene "Judo" Lebell (who is over 60 years old) on a movie set. Seagal was rough handling the extras and stuntmen, who asked Lebell to talk to Seagal about it.
Lebell said something to the effect to Seagal that it is easy to throw around people who won't hit back. Seagal then told Lebell that he can get out of any holds. Lebell made a motion of choking him and Seagal grabbed Lebell's groin. Smiling, Lebell said something to the effect of "are we just playing or doing it for real?"
Seagal said "for real" at which point Lebell put him in a choke hold and poor Seagal passed out and relieved himself at the same time.
Afterwards, he fired everyone on the set and promised to sue anyone who divulged the whole sordid story. It got out though and has been verified by several who were there. Real tough guy, isn't he?
Skorzeny
AdrenalineJunky
New member
Okay...
Notice I used the phrase "flatten the average joe." Meaning that anyone who's skilled in any fighting art form is likely to be able to beat Joe-Shmo who's walking down the street starting shiit. I am a fan of Segal's movies and have no personal knowledge of his off camera behavior. The fact that Segal, or any movie star, for that matter, is a total dickk in real life, in no way effects the fact that I like his movies. Movie stars aren't movie stars because they're the nicest people on the planet. And I think it's cool that someone taught Segal a lesson. The fact that he's an actor does't make him better than anyone else. When people act like assses, they need to be called on it. As far as "bursting my bubble" goes, Christ, I wasn't suggesting Segal was God. I was saying I like to sit down with a bag of popcorn and a soda and watch his flicks.
BTW, tell your wife that round kicks and push kicks just below the knee are brutally painful and very effective when it comes time to defend yourself from someone bigger. That is, if she doesn't already know, sounds like she's got some experience.
"There's nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge..." -HST, Literary Genius
Notice I used the phrase "flatten the average joe." Meaning that anyone who's skilled in any fighting art form is likely to be able to beat Joe-Shmo who's walking down the street starting shiit. I am a fan of Segal's movies and have no personal knowledge of his off camera behavior. The fact that Segal, or any movie star, for that matter, is a total dickk in real life, in no way effects the fact that I like his movies. Movie stars aren't movie stars because they're the nicest people on the planet. And I think it's cool that someone taught Segal a lesson. The fact that he's an actor does't make him better than anyone else. When people act like assses, they need to be called on it. As far as "bursting my bubble" goes, Christ, I wasn't suggesting Segal was God. I was saying I like to sit down with a bag of popcorn and a soda and watch his flicks.
BTW, tell your wife that round kicks and push kicks just below the knee are brutally painful and very effective when it comes time to defend yourself from someone bigger. That is, if she doesn't already know, sounds like she's got some experience.
"There's nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge..." -HST, Literary Genius
RazorsEdge
New member
Well, if Segal wears a dress, thren I'm going to quite watching that sissy boy.
While aikido can be highly effective, it depends on the "bad guy" to over commit his body weight and leave his "tools" hanging out there for you to grab them.
Experienced street fighters aren't going to do this.
While aikido can be highly effective, it depends on the "bad guy" to over commit his body weight and leave his "tools" hanging out there for you to grab them.
Experienced street fighters aren't going to do this.
Although a student of Shotokan, I like to cross pollinate with other styles and arts (Something, by the way, which is encouraged by my Sensei, who'll frequently invite other Sensei and their students to our Dojo, both to teach and to mix it up). When I travel anywhere for more than a week, there's always a Gi in my suit case.
About 10 yrs. back, on a 3 mos. trip, I wound up training at a Tang Soo Do Dojang in Frederick, Md. I also got to compete in 2 tournaments while there. From what I could see and was told, Korean styles (Mainly TKD) were overwhelmingly dominant in this area. In spite of what I had for yrs. been hearing from other Japanese stylists, I came away impressed by both the skill and fighting spirit I saw among these Korean stylists. The only basic differences I saw were a tendency (And not very marked) towards higher kicks or spinning ones, and that they were more disciplined about not making contact.
This brings me to my questions, and I don't mean to challenge anybody by it. From what I keep reading here, Korean styles aren't all that well thought of as real fighting arts. This flies so hard in the face of what I experienced then that I have to ask: Why this poor opinion? Is it that Korean arts have degenerated so badly in the last 10 yrs., or is it that better Korean "Karate" is taught in Maryland? What do you disgusted former TKD people think?
About 10 yrs. back, on a 3 mos. trip, I wound up training at a Tang Soo Do Dojang in Frederick, Md. I also got to compete in 2 tournaments while there. From what I could see and was told, Korean styles (Mainly TKD) were overwhelmingly dominant in this area. In spite of what I had for yrs. been hearing from other Japanese stylists, I came away impressed by both the skill and fighting spirit I saw among these Korean stylists. The only basic differences I saw were a tendency (And not very marked) towards higher kicks or spinning ones, and that they were more disciplined about not making contact.
This brings me to my questions, and I don't mean to challenge anybody by it. From what I keep reading here, Korean styles aren't all that well thought of as real fighting arts. This flies so hard in the face of what I experienced then that I have to ask: Why this poor opinion? Is it that Korean arts have degenerated so badly in the last 10 yrs., or is it that better Korean "Karate" is taught in Maryland? What do you disgusted former TKD people think?
I don't think that there is anything wrong with Korean martial arts. However, the blemish on its reputation comes from some overly commercial schools (known in the trade as "Take One's Dough") that have cheapened/diluted Korean martial arts for the purpose of making a buck. There are plenty of serious Korean martial arts practitioners who can whoop some real backside. I'm sure that the "get your black belt in twelve easy lessons" places absolutely enrage them.
swsurgeon:
Most Korean styles suffer a HUGE credibility gap with me for the reason that they completely FABRICATE the history of their arts.
Many Korean schools do not even admit to the Japanese origin of most of their "native" styles (like Tae Kwon Do, Yudo, Tang Soo Do, Hapkido, Hwa Rang Do, ad naseum, ad infinitum...).
On top of that, many Korean styles altered their systems to make them "less Japanese" resulting in a lot of superfulous and, quite frankly, ridiculous techniques (like running jumping sidekick) being added.
I have no doubt that there are some tough folks in the Korean martial arts scene, but not necessarily because of their systems.
Skorzeny
Most Korean styles suffer a HUGE credibility gap with me for the reason that they completely FABRICATE the history of their arts.
Many Korean schools do not even admit to the Japanese origin of most of their "native" styles (like Tae Kwon Do, Yudo, Tang Soo Do, Hapkido, Hwa Rang Do, ad naseum, ad infinitum...).
On top of that, many Korean styles altered their systems to make them "less Japanese" resulting in a lot of superfulous and, quite frankly, ridiculous techniques (like running jumping sidekick) being added.
I have no doubt that there are some tough folks in the Korean martial arts scene, but not necessarily because of their systems.
Skorzeny
Hi Skorzeny
Hi Skorzeny,
Didn't know too many people knew about Gene LeBell making Segal do the "chicken." Know a guy that was on the set when that happened and Segal did fire the folks who witnessed him "doing the chicken."
From what I heard, he promised that he wasn't going to "fire" anyone if he couldn't get out of the hold. Guess he wasn't telling the truth.
Know a Kempo studio operator who Segal dropped in on and challenged him. Friend, out of respect, declined....Segal stooped to name calling.
Understood it took 15 seconds to drop Segal, then put him in a hold to knock him out.
Go figure. Know the people involved....they have nothing to prove and they are quite competent.
Good to see that you travel in similar circles.
Hi Skorzeny,
Didn't know too many people knew about Gene LeBell making Segal do the "chicken." Know a guy that was on the set when that happened and Segal did fire the folks who witnessed him "doing the chicken."
From what I heard, he promised that he wasn't going to "fire" anyone if he couldn't get out of the hold. Guess he wasn't telling the truth.
Know a Kempo studio operator who Segal dropped in on and challenged him. Friend, out of respect, declined....Segal stooped to name calling.
Understood it took 15 seconds to drop Segal, then put him in a hold to knock him out.
Go figure. Know the people involved....they have nothing to prove and they are quite competent.
Good to see that you travel in similar circles.
Spectre arsenal
Hi Spectre,
Know what you mean about that knee strike... guys hate it because of the Charley horse that stays a while.
If you don't already use it, it works great when someone tries a roundhouse type kick at your groin or kidney area...just aim that knee strike without too much power at the striking leg.
I don't know if you've seen the video that some people have been attaching to their E-mails, but I saw one where this guy in the ring throws out a slap kick to his opponent and his opponent counters with a knee strike to the kicking leg....it still makes me queasy, but you see the shin break of the kicker and his leg goes off in two different directions.
Yuccchhh!, Haven't used it hard enough to break someone's leg, but I have certainly dropped guys in fights with that counter strike. Usually end of fight for that opponent at that time. Hope you don't have to use it, but keep it in mind.
Take care and Viceroy 808 said to say hi! He's still in the service, climbing up the ladder.
Hi Spectre,
Know what you mean about that knee strike... guys hate it because of the Charley horse that stays a while.
If you don't already use it, it works great when someone tries a roundhouse type kick at your groin or kidney area...just aim that knee strike without too much power at the striking leg.
I don't know if you've seen the video that some people have been attaching to their E-mails, but I saw one where this guy in the ring throws out a slap kick to his opponent and his opponent counters with a knee strike to the kicking leg....it still makes me queasy, but you see the shin break of the kicker and his leg goes off in two different directions.
Yuccchhh!, Haven't used it hard enough to break someone's leg, but I have certainly dropped guys in fights with that counter strike. Usually end of fight for that opponent at that time. Hope you don't have to use it, but keep it in mind.
Take care and Viceroy 808 said to say hi! He's still in the service, climbing up the ladder.
"I don't know if you've seen the video that some people have been attaching to their E-mails, but I saw one where this guy in the ring throws out a slap kick to his opponent and his opponent counters with a knee strike to the kicking leg"
Muay Thai 101:
That was a roundhouse kick that was blocked, not a "knee strike" or "slap kick".
Muay Thai 101:
That was a roundhouse kick that was blocked, not a "knee strike" or "slap kick".
That would be a percussive, or 'hard' style. As opposed to a grappling, or 'soft' style.
As far as identifying the exact martial style by the combination -- that's really not possible, it could belong to any of the percussive styles or all of the combatives styles.
LawDog
As far as identifying the exact martial style by the combination -- that's really not possible, it could belong to any of the percussive styles or all of the combatives styles.
LawDog