Handguns with barrels not tilting up when being racked
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
No, it tilts down. So does the Browning Hi-Power and the entire CZ-75 family of pistols.bac1023 said:
Aguila Blanca
Staff
DT Guy said:
It becomes obvious that some people think of it that way but the reality is when the rear of a barrel tilts down, the front (muzzle end) doesn't tilt up. It stays at the same elevation relative to the frame and slide.
I've been shooting 1911s since 1967 and I have never encountered any description of the 1911 (or any similar action pistol) that describes the barrel as tilting up.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Um ... no, that's not how things work.bac1023 said:
Physics will not allow tilting only on one end but has to be over the whole plane, even if not clearly visible to the casual observer. The modified Browning lock up has the barrel tilt up visibly. If you want to be proven wrong I can make a photo of a SIG Sauer P220 and prove you wrong.
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To put it simply, the John Moses Browning locking system with the link will pull the front of the barrel down with the slide stop after a little travel and the front of the barrel will be pulled down after the barrel and slide separate and be in line with the bushing, which is tightly fitted to assure accuracy. The modified Browning lock up is working very differently, has no barrel bushing and tilts over the whole plane.
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Jim Watson
New member
The breech links down but the slide is moving back so the muzzle rocks up on the fulcrum of the bushing.
Take your 1911A1 and lock the slide back. Now look at the barrel, Is it perfectly parallel with the slide or the frame?? It is not.
No, its rarely described that way, but it is the way it works. Pull down one end of a steel rod, the other end moves up. Might not move much, or enough to be easily noticed, but it has to move, or the barrel will be bent, and we know that's not happening.
No, its rarely described that way, but it is the way it works. Pull down one end of a steel rod, the other end moves up. Might not move much, or enough to be easily noticed, but it has to move, or the barrel will be bent, and we know that's not happening.
Yet the 1911 JMB barrel linkage is quite successful in the bullseye game as I understand, and it is a barrel tilting breach lock design (we're so jammed up on whether the barrel tilts up or down I'm not even going to go there).
This IS an interesting question. Obviously a fixed barrel HAS to have more potential mechanical accuracy potential if we exclude all other factors. But other factors come into play. The venerable Sig P210 is world renowned for accuracy... and it uses the JMB breech lock system (which tilts the barrel).
It is those other factors, ALONG WITH the design of the action that make the pistol accurate, or not.
Don't forget to include the quality of execution along with the design features. Its a total package, sights, trigger, barrel, how they fit and function together, and then the ammunition is a whole different layer on top of all that.
And then there is the condition of each individual specimen, something one should not take as indicative of every gun of that design, but people often do.
I have a Colt Govt Model that will put 5 shots into one ragged hole at 25 yds. I had a 1943 Remington Rand 1911A1 that would consistently group 8 inches at that same distance.
Fixed barrel guns have the potential to be quite accurate. Few are, because the majority of fixed barrel pistols are models that have coarse sights and poor triggers. There are, of course, exceptions.
Jim Watson
New member
The usual ISSF center fire is a blowback .32 which is certainly an exception.
The SIG Hammerli P240 was available in .22 l.r., .32 S&W Long WC, and .38 Special WC and was winning a lot of matches back in the day. In the U.S. a few Bullseye shooters have converted the .32 S&W Long to .32 ACP, since nobody imported the H&N bullets and the .32 ACP is as accurate.
While the P240 is a good example of a centerfire pistol that is not locked, the .38 S&W Special Wadcutter is not developing a lot of recoil force.
While the P240 is a good example of a centerfire pistol that is not locked, the .38 S&W Special Wadcutter is not developing a lot of recoil force.
The back tilts down, the front tilts up. Most would say that if the front of the barrel tilts up, the barrel tilts up.
To say otherwise would mean that aiming at a target that is above the gun requires tilting the barrel down.
Elevating something is one thing, tilting it is another thing entirely.
What you are saying is that it doesn't pivot in the middle and that is correct, but by any normal definition of the word 'tilt', if one end of an object tilts and the other does not then it must bend.
To tilt merely means to incline an object. That can be done by lowering one end and raising the other, pivoting the object in the middle, raising one end AND lowering the other, raising one end and then raising the other end more, etc., etc.
Jim Watson
New member
The article I found says the P240 .38 is recoil operated, slide stop/cam track tipping barrel. The .22 and .32 are blowback.
I wonder how many are still in use vs the various forward magazine .32s.
The good old P208 .22 has sure outlasted the modernical P280.
I wonder how many are still in use vs the various forward magazine .32s.
The good old P208 .22 has sure outlasted the modernical P280.