Handguns and bear defense, part 2

  • Thread starter Thread starter DC
  • Start date Start date
concerning holsters; there is a vast gulf between the average holster and a good quality one. thumbsnaps are no slower than without, *if* the holster is well-designed. during the draw cycle, your thumb should cut thru the strap automatically. if not, you will have a hard time drawing under pressure.

one of the *big* yet unsung advantages of certain autopistols like Glocks is that their slide geometry is perfectly configured to allow a thumbsnap strap to retain the gun yet line up with the thumb during a draw. I haven't messed around with wheelguns much, but I am sure the custom holstermakers know how to do a thumbsnap model that draws quick.
 
Randy-
Welcome back.
Once again, feel free to discuss your products here. They fill a specific market niche and many may be unaware of them. Most of all, however, we appreciate your experience.
Rich
 
That was a great message explaining the penetration of different bullet shapes. Thanks!

How about an explanation of what makes a heavy .45-70 bullet superior to a 12 gauge slug?
 
After reading all of the posts I guess I'll add my $.02.
I live in Southern Illinois, so the chances of me seeing a bear are basically nil, bobcat maybe.
After reading all of the posts, I have determined that if one takes all safety precautions that have been mentioned, and you still encounter a bear, and the bear decides you'll be lunch, ones options are limited.
I guess the question is if this were to happen, you only had one gun, what would you want it to be?
Myself, I think at best you might have 5 seconds to react. In this time you will have to try to remain calm, draw your gun, and try to get off a few well placed shots. If I had to pick a gun that I thought was capable of a one shot stop, I'd pick a Freedom Arms' in .475 Limbaugh.
Now I have a Question, as an example let's say you do have 5 secs or so to react. I know, from being timed while I was shooting, I can empty my 1911 in under 3 sec. I managed to keep all shots on paper (of smaller size than a bear). If I was able to draw and empty my 1911 before the bear got to me, what effect would 8 shots of 45ACP have on a bear? I don't know. Would I just piss him off?
One more question. If you were in this suituation, could only get off one shot, were able remain calm, take good aim, and the bear is charging you head on, where do you try to shoot him? Go for a head shot? I've heard their skull is like concrete.
Well I've rambled long enough, hope I didn't sound to stupid.

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As to marksmanship, it is not what you once did, rather it is what you can do on demand.
 
Geez Randy...
You're sucking me into the handgun forum, as if I don't have other things to do :)

This discussion of penetration vs shape is fascinating. Not that I doubt you, as your theory sounds valid; have you ever considered setting up an empirical situation? I.E. filming at high speed and magnification the moment of impact then penetration? Then you could run it back at a slower frame rate and see exactly. Make comparative films of various bullet shapes.
They'd be very cool to watch :)

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!



[This message has been edited by DC (edited December 08, 1999).]
 
DC: Such tests would be interesting, but unfortunately they would be extremely expensive. Since expense is a limiting factor, I satisfy myself with verifiable observations using affordable mediums. Although seemingly crude by the standards of high speed photography of penetration through gelatin blocks, the practice of using wet newspapers is one I have considerable faith in, mostly because I have been running those tests for nearly three decades now and the results tend to be pretty darn uniform. Also, something interesting about the use of bullets with broad meplats is their very clear tendency to penetrate with great consistency. When impacting such bullets into wet newspapers, they invariably are all found within very close proximity to one another. As meplats grow smaller, I have observed that the variation of penetration depth begins to increase considerably. For example, sometimes truncated cones with their small meplats penetrate quite well, other times, when impacted into the same medium on the same occasion, they do very poorly. This amplifies the importance of running a lot of these tests, and always shooting more than just a couple of bullets of each type, as that can lead to aberrant results and false conclusions. Terminal instability as manifested by bullet yaw seems the likely cause of the poor penetration of bullets possessing small meplats, but whatever the reason it is clear that the small meplated bullets do not penetrate as well as larger meplated bullets, all other things being equal. Really, this is great news as the blunter bullet must "hurt" the target more per unit of penetration than the smaller meplated bullet.
 
six 4 sure - I've read that the hard bullet-deflecting skull is a myth. Apparently the brains are located directly behind the nose and eyes. Therefore a shot placed directly in the forehead merely hits thick bone and will not stop a bruin determined to charge.

So Randy - you've been side-stepping the $40,000 question for 5 days now. "Will you or will you not develop a load for the .45 colt?" We are sitting by anxiously with credit cards in hand. If a .45 can out perform a .44 mag while using less pressure, then why not? So what's it going to be???
 
Welcome back Randy!

Fascinating little treatise on bullets up there - do you mind if I copy that and paste it into a future page of my web site? I plan on expanding the firearms section considerably in the near future.

And (hehe) how about that .45 Colt load? Are you concerned about liability perhaps, with maniacs like myself who might go dropping it into a Smith? I can understand if thats whats holding you back, theres lots of revolvers out there that just aren't designed for hot .45 loads.



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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
45 Colt shooters: I have no current plans of offering anything for the 45 Colt. That's not meant to be a Clintonesque sidestep, there are just too many obstacles to cause difficulties with factory loading for that fine caliber. The biggest problem is pretty obvious, and that is the great preponderance of 45 Colt revolvers that are not up to the rigors of high performance loadings. As a side note, it is frequently stated that the 45 Colt can do anything the 44 Magnum can do, and do it with less pressure. However, a 300-gr bullet from the 45 Colt has less sectional density than a 300-gr bullet from the 44 Magnum, so to make a fair performance comparison one would have to compare bullets of the same sectional density. When one does that, the advantage of the bigger caliber is not quite so clear. Also, the 45 Colt MUST work at lower pressure than the 44 Magnum due to the fact that chamber wall thickness for the bigger caliber is less, and thus cannot safely withstand the same pressures as can the same revolver when chambered in 44 Magnum. So it would be dangerous to conclude that the 45 Colt could be loaded to the same pressures as the 44 Magnum, in order to achieve a clear advantage. To do so in the majority of revolvers would be dangerous. The 45 Colt is a fine caliber, but efforts to exceed the power levels achievable in the 44 Magnum require the use of a 5-shot revolver. The difference between the two calibers regarding power capability is small, and ultimately the contest between them regarding impact-effect will be won or lost by bullet selection, not caliber selection.
Regarding the issue of whether hard bullets deflect off of the skull of a big bear, clearly any bullet can deflect if the angle of engagement is too steep. However, there is a considerable body of evidence that proper hard-cast bullets with broad meplats tend to dig into bad angle bone much better than bullets with less blunt front ends (smaller meplats). I personally know of quite a few people who have put proper castings into the skulls of uncoming bruins, and invariably they penetrated the skull and achieved penetration well past the skull.
Best regards, Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com

[This message has been edited by Randy Garrett (edited December 09, 1999).]
 
I think the myth about "bullets bouncing off a bears skull" comes mainly from grizzlies. If you compare a brown/grizzly skull to the actual head with the hide still attached it becomes real obvious that theres no brain behind that forehead (this isn't as true of black bears, the head is shaped differently - like a dogs). Anyway, browns have a "forehead" but the only thing behind it is hide, muscle and a layer of fat.
The actual skull cap goes straight back from the top of the eye socket. Shoot above the eyes and your bullet is just tearing up meat and fat - the bullet doesn't bounce off the skull, it never hits the skull if you shoot there.




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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
It would seem that a .454 Casull would do the trick, with 325 gr. hard lead swc's going about 1600 fps. The Ruger might hurt when firing several rounds, but my Taurus Raging Bull doesn't, and follow-up shots are not difficult at all. Say wat you will about Taurus, but that system makes the .454 easy to shoot (if you can shoot to begin with). Alternatively, a gunsmith I know makes a 5-shot 50 cal. Ruger single action, andI've shot it (450 gr. bullets, I think) and boy did it kick, but I'm SURE it would do the trick!
 
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