Handguns and bear defense, part 2

  • Thread starter Thread starter DC
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Enough of this business about running Mr. Garrett off. I deleted the posts he found objectionable and e-mailed him with an apology. In turn, Randy e-mailed me and his message was very professional and polite. As it turns out, we have much more in common than you guys will ever know.

If you want information from Mr. Garrett you can simply e-mail him and I am confident he will respond personally. Better yet, e-mail him and invite him back to The Firing Line.

For some of us who have had multiple bear encounters, and have had friends mauled and killed by bears, this topic can invoke some pretty emotional responses. If we can not stop with the flames and personal attacks (I am guilty but have repented) then maybe the best thing to do is to lock the thread.
 
Hey you guys, thanks for inviting me back. Just to clarify my thoughts regarding the large caliber handgun for bear defense, I regard the handgun as a gun of opportunity, not one of choice. Clearly the heavy rifle is preferable if one anticipates shooting a big bear, however for those times when the big rifle is not at hand, like when one has walked off from camp for some fresh water or to relieve oneself, and has failed to take the bigger gun, the large caliber handgun with proper ammo just might save the day. And for those occasions when, and this does sound a little like a hypothetical even though it is a possibility, an attack results in the shooter losing possession of the long gun, a short barreled double-action revolver might be one's only chance. Thanks again for all the kind invitations to return to the Firing Line. Best regards, Randy Garrett
 
Welcome Back Randy! Glad you didn't get too steamed at us. I was especially interested because I foresee a Ruger Redhawk in my future. Glad you're back.

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Anarchism: The radical notion that I am the sole authority when it comes to deciding what's best for me.
 
Garrett:
Although I do not like what seems to be shameless free advertisment on this forum on your part, I must admit that I was wrong. Even though I do not like it, it isn't right for me to tell you to take it elsewhere. As I have learned from Oleg... We should not forget our 1st amendment, in defending our second. My apologies.
...your knowledge is welcomed back.
<<edit>> and WHO wants to get close enough to a bear to use pepper spray?? You GOTTA be kiddin me! (not directed at you Garrett =)

[This message has been edited by Beretta Boy (edited December 07, 1999).]
 
It seems to me - that this thread should be in the RIFLE forum. Thats what I would carry for Bear Defense. A Scout in .376 or a good old fasioned Bolt Gun chambered for something brutal would be the proper medicine for bear - regardless of color. Browns Grizzlies look no different to a smaller Black Bear to me.
A. its a BEAR.
B. its close enough and angry enough to be considered a threat...
C. its a BEAR.
I dont mess around with something that can EAT ME... Bears, Sharks, Monsters... Tongans.

I would rather like to be over gunned than to live out the horros of one of the more common "Gun Nightmares."
You know that one where your attacker keeps coming after you accurately place all your shots center mass to NO EFFECT.
<shudders>
I hate that dream.

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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
Hey - have you seen the new Ultimate Super Tactical Match Gun?



[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited December 07, 1999).]
 
I'd like to know what sort of sidearm Mr. Garrett uses as his personal launcher for .44 Magnum bear-stoppers. I'm going to guess it's a 5.5" Ruger Redhawk, since the cylinder of the S&W M29 might not be long enough for a 300+ grain bullet.

Also, I'm curious as to what the advantage is of a hard-cast bullet over a FMJ design. Is it just velocity, or is the cast bullet really harder than a thick-jacketed FMJ?

Finally, I'd like to know how well bullets with a conical nose penetrate compared to flat-nosed bullets.

As long as we have an expert on heavy Magnum loads here, I'm going to milk all the info out of him I can. :)
 
Beretta Boy: I will refrain from directly discussing my products on the forum. If someone desires info on them, just drop me an e-mail for additional information. Best regards, Randy Garrett
 
Mr. Garrett, glad you decided to return. Get to work on the .45 Colt load, you're losing money by not having one.

One thing that has been left out in this excellent 2-part thread:

If you are going to carry a heavy sixgun for bear defense, you've got to be able to deploy it instantly. This precludes the use of nylon shoulder rigs meant for toting hunting handguns, or cheap mass produced belt holsters with thumbreak snaps. The only two options are behind the hip strongside and crossdraw carry(fast and accessible to both hands. Kydex or hard molded leather in open top designs are the only options here, the Blade-Tech, Kramer Vertical Scabbard, or Sparks 200 AW are the best IMHO, as they offer speed and security in one package. It doesn't make sense to carry a gun for instant defense and then limit your access to it. Anyone else have any thoughts on this issue?

Dave
 
;)
now if we were real men, in the proper Masai mind set, we would carry a spear and wait for mr. bear to come in real close!
;)
at work we had a full size skeleton of a 50 foot dinosaur on display, i have found a sporting need for the 50bmg!
;)

dZ
"walk softly and carry a big stick, one that goes bang in .308 is fine"
 
Welcome back Randy...

Glad you decided to weather our (sometimes) STRONG opinions and come back for another round of discussion. My sincerest apologies if I've discredited or offended you in any way, your comments are welcome and encouraged here.

I do have 2 questions for you. First, I too have a problem visualizing an elmer kieth-style hard cast out penetrating an thick skinned fmj (unless the hard cast approaches the hardness of a monolithic solid). How HARD are these bullets (yours or others) in comparison to "solids" and how do they rate penetration vs fmj??

Most of the hangun hunters I know (who aren't carrying casulls or contenders) are using Ruger Blackhawk Hunter models and 300 gr XTP handloaded HEAVY charged rounds, and I think this is excactly the WRONG kind of load for this specific scenario, and might even be asking for trouble on a badly placed shot.
XTP's are designed for rapid expansion, so at HYPED-UP velocicty on a large animal (say elk or bear) you may create a over pressure load that breaks up on impact rather than penetrating with its full payload. (i've had this happen with a 30-06 bullet) I'm betting this load they developed (while accurate) probably will shed its jacket, overfragment etc. that's why i've stuck to a 240 grain flat point jsp at standard pressures. On the OTHER hand THEY are the expert handgunners, not me.

I think we should also seperate bears into two categories becasue while all bears are POTENTIALLY dangerous (beging bigger faster and more heavily armed than the average clever hominid). The fact is NOT all bears are alaskan BROWNIES. I would not consider a colorado black bear to be "dangerous game". I sure as HELL DO consider a brownie to be that. A 30-06 is enough medicine for a colo. blackie.. its just not eough gun (even with 220 grain bullets) for dangerous game that can wiegh 1000+ pounds.. i think a 375 is the minimum for that kind of bruin.

On holsters.. I still think a can of pepper spray and prevention are better cures.. when it comes to suprising wildlife... but a CROSS Draw holster is the fastest rig you can draw from, IMHO. (in a bear or hunting scenario we aren't concerned about animals drawing our weapons away from us).

On sA vs DA.. a ruger bisley vaquero (with its lower hammer) might be faster to employ than a blackhawk though still not near as expensive as a heavy smith. "fast drawing" CAN be praticed and IS done frequently by our friends over in the cowboy sports. practice practice practice.

Keith pointed out he had a rifle IN HIS Hands.. and still wasn't fast enough.. so keep in mind this Entire discussion is fairly academic.

No matter what you use when you go in the woods.. please remember to use your head. its the BEST weapon you have at your disposal.

your former boy scout pal,

Dr.Rob
 
You know, PETA or some other animal hugging organization is going to come across this topic and have us disbanded!

Honestly, I would love to kill a wild Grizzly before I die. I might try it with a huge bowie knife, or not...
 
Randy. Glad to see you back. Mt bear problem would be with black bears. I don't think there are any "griz" left in southern Arizona. :(, or would :) be appropriate? :O
Seriously though, my bear protection gun is a Ruger Super "B" with the 4 5/8 inch barrel. I load it with a 300 + grain bullet with a hefty charge of W-296. I don't know what the velocity is; I haven't gotten around to chronographing it yet. I'd estimate somewhere between 1200 and 1300 fps. It has the bad habit of shooting about 6 to 8 inched high at 25 yards. I'm going to have to try some at 15 to 20 feet to see where they go. They do this on all my .44 magnums. I could carry a rifle on my hikes, but I think the state of Arizona would accuse me of hunting bears out of season or some such.
Seeing as Randy feels that a double action revolver would be a better choice, I guress I'll have to see what I can find. Oh, how I love a good excuse to buy another gun. :) I spotted a cherry 4 inch mod. 29 at the last gun show I went to. Hopefully the guy still has it at the next one.
Paul B.
 
Glad you're back, Randy! I've enjoyed reading your posts. A question for you: do you think the .44 Magnum is superior to the .45LC in terms of bear-stopping ability? I'm a .44 Mag. fan myself but know some people who believe the .45LC (loaded very hot and fired in Ruger revolvers only) is a more potent weapon. Your opinion?

Sic semper tyrannis

freedomlover
 
Dr. Rob

RE: SA vs DA

I think you are confusing the Ruger Blackhawk with the Redhawk. The Blackhawk is a single-action, the Bisley was later modeled on it and is only different cosmetically and more 19th century authentic.

Blackhawk:
bn34x.gif

Bisley Vaquero:
rbnv475.gif

The Redhawk is the double action revolver:
ksrh7.gif


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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!



[This message has been edited by DC (edited December 07, 1999).]
 
I do not like the Hornady XTP bullet too much. Although the impacts are massive and penetration as advertised, the entrance and exit wounds are way too clean. The animals do not bleed very well.

Robert
 
seems to me that the ultimate up
close bear gun was featured in
National Lampoon's Vacation

you remember

the 110v super tactical, double
barreled, shoot the hide off their
ass shotgun! :)

I've learned a great deal in our
bear threads. Keith, you have a
great web site! Garrett's ammo has an excellent reputation and I would no doubt choose it if I ever have the opportunity to hunt bear.

------
big bear
big bear chase me!
JCandy
 
DC..

I was comparing the single action hammer on Blackhawks/vaquero's vs the bisley model.. in my opinion the bisley is faster to cock. (but that could just be a better fit for my hand) price on a vaquero is HALF what a smith model 629 goes for around here.

Dr.Rob
 
Hi Randy, Glad you came back.
Looks like I'm not the only .45 Colt fan here, looks like you've got your work cut out for you. :)
 
I like both single actions and double action revolvers for hunting, but I don't think one is inherently faster to get into action for the first shot. Ed McGivern set all kinds of speed records with S&W double actions. However, most of the guys that advocate double actions for bear defense do so because, as the arguement goes, if a bear gets you down which he may well do if he attacks, the mechanical requirements of firing a double action gun are significantly less difficult since one must only keep pulling the trigger, as opposed to having to thumb the hammer.
Regarding the penetration of FMJs compared to good cast bullets, it depends upon the specific bullets considered. However, about 28-yrs ago before I started casting bullets I discovered that the Sierra 250-gr FMJ silhouette bullet was an excellent bullet for penetration, whereas some others that did not have a flat on the front, or as big a flat, were not. At the velocities produced by that early Sierra, deformation was not a problem. It has become apparent to me through the years that although logic would seem to suggest that a bullet with less frontal area should out-penetrate a bullet with more frontal area, given the same weight and velocity and ability to resist deformation, it usually doesn't. The truncated cone is an excellent example. There are many extremely heavy truncated cone cast bullets available for the 44 Magnum, and they usually have a meplat diameter of between .210-inch and .230-inch. They look like they should penetrate until next week with all that weight behind the small front end (meplat), but in fact they produce less penetration than SWCs of the same weight driven to the same speed. Yet the SWCs are blunter. As I then tried castings with meplats with diameters in the .320-inch class I found that they tended to out-penetrate the SWCs (same weight and velocity), and again they were blunter than the SWCs. This strongly suggested to me that there was more going on than just sectional density and resistance to penetration, as a result of the meplat diameter. Since it is easier to observe than explain, I can only speculate, but the testing I have done suggests to me that when the front half of the bullet weighs considerably less than the back half, the back half has a tendency to try to overtake the front half upon impact with a tough target (animal or penetration medium). This takes the form of the bullet yawing or going sideways which obviously greatly reduces penetration. Those bullets that carry as much or nearly as much weight on the front half of the bullet, tend to be much more stable in that regard and produce straighter and deeper penetration channels, and usually come to a stop nose first (at least in consistent penetration mediums, and apparently also in game). This is interesting, as one might normally conclude that the blunter bullet would have to lose the penetration contest, quite simply because it produces more resistance. However, the issue of terminal stability seems to outweight or overwhelm any advantage that small meplats would seem to offer with regards to pushing a smaller front end, which it would seem should produce less resistance. It appears that the rigors of impact are substantial enough for the bullet to lose virtually all of its aerodynamic stability and yaw or go sideways, again if a significant disparity exists between the weight of the front half and the back half of the bullet. However, when one tries a full caliber wadcutter of the same weight and velocity, one starts to observe a definite decrease in penetration depth. This would suggest that meplat diameter greater than that required to achieve terminal stability will reduce penetration depth, since no more terminal stability can be achieved. At this point, the bluntness catches up with the penetration ability of the bullet and no longer contributes to terminal stability.
Regarding the 45 Colt vs the 44 Magnum, it is my view that it is a very close call, but that the 45 Colt might well out-penetrate and slightly out-perform the 44 Magnum when taken to its full safe potential from a six shooter. However, the difference appears to be small. The 45 Colt as fired from a Ruger, for instance, is a great choice, at least in potential, and there is no good reason for the handloader to go to the 44 Magnum for maximum effectivenss if he already has a strong 45 Colt to work with.
For my use, and this is just personal, I carry the 44 Magnum with hard-cast bullets of great weight and meplat diameters of .320-inch. The gun I carry as a last resort defense revolver is my 5 and 1/2 inch Redhawk. It is relatively easy to get out of the holter (when compared to longer barrels), and it will carry a bigger load than any other six shooters out there due to strength and cylinder length (except for the Super Redhawk which is of equal strength and cylinder length dimensions). It is also double action, and as such seems to me to be more idiot proof when in a desperate life and death struggle like a mauling (heaven forbid).

[This message has been edited by Randy Garrett (edited December 08, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Randy Garrett (edited December 08, 1999).]
 
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