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Handguns and bear defense, part 2
- Thread starter DC
- Start date
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
Listen up! Before you guys get wrapped around the axle -
We've all heard the jokes about removing the front sight, saving the last round for yourself, carrying a .22 to kneecap your buddy and outrunning your companion!
Ok - have at it!
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"I don't make enough money to buy cheap stuff" - Mark Manning
[This message has been edited by Gizmo99 (edited December 05, 1999).]
We've all heard the jokes about removing the front sight, saving the last round for yourself, carrying a .22 to kneecap your buddy and outrunning your companion!
Ok - have at it!
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"I don't make enough money to buy cheap stuff" - Mark Manning
[This message has been edited by Gizmo99 (edited December 05, 1999).]
I've stayed out of this mainly because I've never had to deal with a bear attack and probably never will. However, I do occasionally go camping in state and national parks in east Tennesseee where black bears do live. Now these are "Park" bears and used to having us annoying humans around. Generally, a bit of yelling and arm waving results in the bear giving you a sort of "screw you!" look and he will turn and wander off at his own speed unconcered with that crazy human.
Second, getting my gun, which I'm not supposed to have in the park to begin with, into play could be a real problem as it will have to be completely concealed. I think next time I decide to wander into bear country I'll take along some pepper spray.
My current bear defense gun is my S&W .45 Colt Mountian Gun loaded with 300gr hard cast flat points at about 1000 fps. I think this would be more than enough to stop a blackie. While I haven't shot this load alot, I think the S&W is strong enough to digest this ammo without any problems. However, since I've never had to use it, I would like to know what our resident experts think of the combo.
Also, I don't understand why some of you are picking on Randy Garrett. The man obviously knows what he's talking about and it just makes sense that he would be most knowledgeable about his own products. I don't see any advertising here. In fact, I'm glad he is here to share his opinions with us. Get over it and leave the man alone.
Second, getting my gun, which I'm not supposed to have in the park to begin with, into play could be a real problem as it will have to be completely concealed. I think next time I decide to wander into bear country I'll take along some pepper spray.
My current bear defense gun is my S&W .45 Colt Mountian Gun loaded with 300gr hard cast flat points at about 1000 fps. I think this would be more than enough to stop a blackie. While I haven't shot this load alot, I think the S&W is strong enough to digest this ammo without any problems. However, since I've never had to use it, I would like to know what our resident experts think of the combo.
Also, I don't understand why some of you are picking on Randy Garrett. The man obviously knows what he's talking about and it just makes sense that he would be most knowledgeable about his own products. I don't see any advertising here. In fact, I'm glad he is here to share his opinions with us. Get over it and leave the man alone.
Keith Rogan
New member
>>>>My current bear defense gun is my S&W .45 Colt Mountian Gun loaded with 300gr hard cast flat points at about 1000 fps. I think this would be more than enough to stop a blackie<<<<<
I think that is the best choice of handgun and slug you could possibly get. Personally, I'd load it even hotter for actual use. The Mountain Gun isn't designed to hold up with the hot "Ruger Level" loads but I'm assured that Very limited shooting with hot loads is fine.
Garrett doesn't make a .45 Colt load, so maybe a S&W Mountain Revolver in .44 Mag with Garrett loads would be the best you get without actually throwing away your warranty - or taking any risks.
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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
I think that is the best choice of handgun and slug you could possibly get. Personally, I'd load it even hotter for actual use. The Mountain Gun isn't designed to hold up with the hot "Ruger Level" loads but I'm assured that Very limited shooting with hot loads is fine.
Garrett doesn't make a .45 Colt load, so maybe a S&W Mountain Revolver in .44 Mag with Garrett loads would be the best you get without actually throwing away your warranty - or taking any risks.
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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
How about a bazooka??
remember, the thread was about DEFENDING yourself against an agressive bear NOT ferreting one out in his hooch and making war on him.
If you've been reading the thread, you'll see that stopping a charging bear is a difficult thing and 1 shot might be all you get... and IN THAT CASE, if you are going to use a firearm, I'd agree with Kieth and Randy that a hard cast bullet is the way to go (for KODIAK bears) Bears in the lower 48 can be handled with a jsp. If you DON'T Score a head shot you can at least hope the bullet keeps penetrating into something more vital. A 223 is just wishful thinking.
PS i got to see some of that discovery special on bears and their expert confirmed a lot of what Kieth and I have been saying. The real thing is LEARN all you can about the flora and fauna of where you are going and pack accordingly.
My preffered .44 load is a winchester 240 grain soft point with a flat profile, this is a deep penetrating hunting round designed for deep penetration and controlled expansion. (that's my belt gun load for elk)
but If you are gonna go hunt a bear of any kind, unless you are an expert handgun hunter, you should plan on using a hi powered rifle or 12 guage shotgun.
Dr.Rob
remember, the thread was about DEFENDING yourself against an agressive bear NOT ferreting one out in his hooch and making war on him.
If you've been reading the thread, you'll see that stopping a charging bear is a difficult thing and 1 shot might be all you get... and IN THAT CASE, if you are going to use a firearm, I'd agree with Kieth and Randy that a hard cast bullet is the way to go (for KODIAK bears) Bears in the lower 48 can be handled with a jsp. If you DON'T Score a head shot you can at least hope the bullet keeps penetrating into something more vital. A 223 is just wishful thinking.
PS i got to see some of that discovery special on bears and their expert confirmed a lot of what Kieth and I have been saying. The real thing is LEARN all you can about the flora and fauna of where you are going and pack accordingly.
My preffered .44 load is a winchester 240 grain soft point with a flat profile, this is a deep penetrating hunting round designed for deep penetration and controlled expansion. (that's my belt gun load for elk)
but If you are gonna go hunt a bear of any kind, unless you are an expert handgun hunter, you should plan on using a hi powered rifle or 12 guage shotgun.
Dr.Rob
While wrapping up a sale for one of my guns at the shop i normally do business at i found, Lever action short barreled [18 or 20 inches?] iron sighted Winchester rifle in 45-70 cal. Barrel was ported; and was sweet handeling rifle. After picking it up, i thought about this thread and guns to use against bear attacks. With some of Mr. Garretts loads, great bear rifle!!!
Unfortunately, Mr. Garrett was a bit annoyed by some members and won't be back to The Firing Line.
Carry enough gun. A magnaported Ruger SuperRedHawk in .454 Casull. I've fired the beast and after three rounds, I had enough. Magnaporting and adrenalin may make for good shooting companions when your primary rifle fails. Does Barrett M82 sound right? Like Keith says, have a competent buddy with a gun is the best backup you can ask for.
Given the right conditions, a .223 will take down even a Grizzly. Of course, I'm thinking of a .223 GE Minigun. If nothing else, betcha can chop his limbs off from underneath him. You'd ruin the hide of course.
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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
Carry enough gun. A magnaported Ruger SuperRedHawk in .454 Casull. I've fired the beast and after three rounds, I had enough. Magnaporting and adrenalin may make for good shooting companions when your primary rifle fails. Does Barrett M82 sound right? Like Keith says, have a competent buddy with a gun is the best backup you can ask for.
Given the right conditions, a .223 will take down even a Grizzly. Of course, I'm thinking of a .223 GE Minigun. If nothing else, betcha can chop his limbs off from underneath him. You'd ruin the hide of course.
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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
Since some of you also enjoy some of the amusing aspects of this thread....
I believe that ANY gun, if properly afixed to the front end of a speeding logging truck or Abrams tank might just do the job. I'm still not sure of the one-shot stop. But since a one-shot stop is more of a hypothetical issue, that point is moot.
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Ron
Detroit Area Chapter
Terra-Haute Torque & Recoil Society
I believe that ANY gun, if properly afixed to the front end of a speeding logging truck or Abrams tank might just do the job. I'm still not sure of the one-shot stop. But since a one-shot stop is more of a hypothetical issue, that point is moot.
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Ron
Detroit Area Chapter
Terra-Haute Torque & Recoil Society
Over 1700 blackies were taken this year in PA. The largest was 566 lbs. (respectable size). However I was shocked to see that many were less than 200 lbs, some in the 150 range. Is this an average size for this part of the country? Hardly seems worth the trouble. How much of a threat would a 150 lb blackie pose to the average guy? Does anyone here hunt bear? If so, share some insight or an experience.
Not attacking anyone's opinions, but I kinda think that "park" bears, that have frequent contact with people, are probably more dangerous than a bear that's never seen a person before. Even though we may think of the "park" bear as tame it is probably the more dangerous of the two.
Animals don't like people. Given the chance, most wild animals will leave the area if they spot a human. (Excepting of course a starved animal, a sick animal, mother with cubs, some animals in a certain area during rut, etc.)
People at Yellowstone and other parks are warned by the staff about feeding bears, storing food securely, what to do with trash, where not to go, etc. These warnings are being given because the staff realizes that the bears have figured out that people are defenseless and usually have food with them.
It is the animal that is no longer afraid of people that is most dangerous to us.
That is, afraid in a cautious/suspicious nature.
A panicked animal is afraid in a whole different way, and is extremely dangerous.
I would be more likely to take along some bear medicine when visiting Yellowstone, Yosemite and others, than if I was going to a very remote unexplored area of the country.
That doesn't mean I would go anywhere in the woods unarmed. I don't.
I'm just trying to make the point that it's more likely to have negative contact with wildlife in a park area than way off in the sticks.
$.02, -Kframe
Animals don't like people. Given the chance, most wild animals will leave the area if they spot a human. (Excepting of course a starved animal, a sick animal, mother with cubs, some animals in a certain area during rut, etc.)
People at Yellowstone and other parks are warned by the staff about feeding bears, storing food securely, what to do with trash, where not to go, etc. These warnings are being given because the staff realizes that the bears have figured out that people are defenseless and usually have food with them.
It is the animal that is no longer afraid of people that is most dangerous to us.
That is, afraid in a cautious/suspicious nature.
A panicked animal is afraid in a whole different way, and is extremely dangerous.
I would be more likely to take along some bear medicine when visiting Yellowstone, Yosemite and others, than if I was going to a very remote unexplored area of the country.
That doesn't mean I would go anywhere in the woods unarmed. I don't.
I'm just trying to make the point that it's more likely to have negative contact with wildlife in a park area than way off in the sticks.
$.02, -Kframe
K-frame,
No offense taken, what you say makes perfect sense. I was really refering to the "Park" bears attitude. They are used to people, don't really like them and don't want to be bothered by them. You are correct that if one of these park bears does attack, It ain't because he was frightened. Somebody probably pissed him off. And it that case, you are in one serious world of hurt.
No offense taken, what you say makes perfect sense. I was really refering to the "Park" bears attitude. They are used to people, don't really like them and don't want to be bothered by them. You are correct that if one of these park bears does attack, It ain't because he was frightened. Somebody probably pissed him off. And it that case, you are in one serious world of hurt.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Does a 150 lb bear pose a threat to
a big strong guy?
Does a 150 lb guy with knives in each
hand pose a threat to you?
Then a mouth full of knives.
Also, animals are suprisingly stronger pound
for pound than a comparative person in
a lot of cases.
I didn't work with bears but primates and
a friend was a comparative psychologist
and these guys can be awesome.
A 40 pound rhesus monkey will duke it out
with you successfully. A 150 chimp
will kick the crap out of you. Reasons as
I was told were: more efficient oxygen
metabolism, more mitchondria, heavier
musculature and better leverage.
I imagine a 150 bear can do the same.
a big strong guy?
Does a 150 lb guy with knives in each
hand pose a threat to you?
Then a mouth full of knives.
Also, animals are suprisingly stronger pound
for pound than a comparative person in
a lot of cases.
I didn't work with bears but primates and
a friend was a comparative psychologist
and these guys can be awesome.
A 40 pound rhesus monkey will duke it out
with you successfully. A 150 chimp
will kick the crap out of you. Reasons as
I was told were: more efficient oxygen
metabolism, more mitchondria, heavier
musculature and better leverage.
I imagine a 150 bear can do the same.
concerning 150lb bears; another way to look at it is the typical 200lb American male couch potato, versus a 200lb NFL running back. who is going to win that tussle?
strength-wise, a 200lb black bear probably is close to a 400lb black bear, as they are likely to have similar amounts of muscle mass (the differential being mostly fat). continuing along this vein, the 200 pounder may be *more* likely to stalk and attack, if he needs to fatten up before winter.
Glenn, I bet those monkeys & chimps are all fast-twitch muscle fiber as well. they have less coordination, but greater strength per pound.
from what I've read, black bears that are coexisting with man are less likely to predate than true wilderness bears. which makes sense because dumpster bears get enough food without the hassle of stalking and killing. I seem to recall the last case of a predatory black bear attack in the eastern US was in upstate NY.
George, I get the impression that 150-200lb is average for a blackie, but certain areas seem to breed big'uns. probably the same as deer; a food-rich environment can result in a weight increase of a factor of 2.
strength-wise, a 200lb black bear probably is close to a 400lb black bear, as they are likely to have similar amounts of muscle mass (the differential being mostly fat). continuing along this vein, the 200 pounder may be *more* likely to stalk and attack, if he needs to fatten up before winter.
Glenn, I bet those monkeys & chimps are all fast-twitch muscle fiber as well. they have less coordination, but greater strength per pound.
from what I've read, black bears that are coexisting with man are less likely to predate than true wilderness bears. which makes sense because dumpster bears get enough food without the hassle of stalking and killing. I seem to recall the last case of a predatory black bear attack in the eastern US was in upstate NY.
George, I get the impression that 150-200lb is average for a blackie, but certain areas seem to breed big'uns. probably the same as deer; a food-rich environment can result in a weight increase of a factor of 2.
I think this discussion is a matter of the right gun for the right situation. I mean, who's gonna want to carry a pump action 12 gauge when they ride their bike or go jogging? But at the same time, why the hell are you riding your bike or running in dangerous bear country?
If I was backpacking, I would probably sling a longarm. Preferrably a Marlin Guide Gun or some shotgun loaded with slugs. If I was traveling light, I might want to pack a heavy caliber handgun (revolver).
If I was backpacking, I would probably sling a longarm. Preferrably a Marlin Guide Gun or some shotgun loaded with slugs. If I was traveling light, I might want to pack a heavy caliber handgun (revolver).
Assuming you don't have a .44 mag or .45 colt, Corbon promotes a .357 200gr 1200 fps
hard-cast flat point or Penetrator for bear defense. Does anyone have experience with this load or something similar? Is there anything better out there anyone is aware of? Any input would be appreciated.
hard-cast flat point or Penetrator for bear defense. Does anyone have experience with this load or something similar? Is there anything better out there anyone is aware of? Any input would be appreciated.