Handgunners: anyone consider a pistol caliber carbine for their home defense gun?
- Thread starter Smaug
- Start date
@ Webley
Well, if you live in the middle of nowhere and are not concerned what happens when the 223 goes through one wall after another, I guess it would be OK. 9mm would be a lot quieter.
OO buck from a shotgun would have the same problem, I think.
I think bird shot from a shotgun is probably the best from this standpoint. Would be lethal at closer ranges because the pattern would be so tight. Kind of like a pre-expanded hollow point. But walls would slow down those tiny BBs pretty fast.
A carbine like this is smaller than most ARs, so better maneuverability indoors. Less maneuverable than a handgun, but more accurate too. With a light and a laser, it would be hard to miss. Lastly, one can purchase shotshells for 9mm and 45 ACP and use it as a non-lethal first round, if needed.
Webley said:
Well, if you live in the middle of nowhere and are not concerned what happens when the 223 goes through one wall after another, I guess it would be OK. 9mm would be a lot quieter.
OO buck from a shotgun would have the same problem, I think.
I think bird shot from a shotgun is probably the best from this standpoint. Would be lethal at closer ranges because the pattern would be so tight. Kind of like a pre-expanded hollow point. But walls would slow down those tiny BBs pretty fast.
A carbine like this is smaller than most ARs, so better maneuverability indoors. Less maneuverable than a handgun, but more accurate too. With a light and a laser, it would be hard to miss. Lastly, one can purchase shotshells for 9mm and 45 ACP and use it as a non-lethal first round, if needed.
I think you'll find the 223 penetrates less than the pistol calibers in walls. Bird shot is great for, well, birds.
Buckshot makes a lot more sense if it has to be a shotgun, but it, as well as slugs, have the same problem as pistol caliber guns when it comes to vests.
Most of the pistol caliber carbines Ive seen, unless they are SBR's, are as big as a 16" AR or AK. You really dont gain anything in that respect.
Buckshot makes a lot more sense if it has to be a shotgun, but it, as well as slugs, have the same problem as pistol caliber guns when it comes to vests.
Most of the pistol caliber carbines Ive seen, unless they are SBR's, are as big as a 16" AR or AK. You really dont gain anything in that respect.
The M1 Carbine would be an awesome HD weapon if more self defense loads were available for it. Military ball would be a poor choice as it just zips through leaving a small wound.
One carbine you shouldn't overlook either is a decent pistol-caliber lever action. A .357 Magnum Marlin or Uberti replica can still spit bullets almost as fast as many people can yank the trigger on a semi-auto, and it has the added advantage of looking very PC to a jury.
One carbine you shouldn't overlook either is a decent pistol-caliber lever action. A .357 Magnum Marlin or Uberti replica can still spit bullets almost as fast as many people can yank the trigger on a semi-auto, and it has the added advantage of looking very PC to a jury.
My sub 2000 in 9mm is the only other firearm other than my CCW's that's not in the main gunsafe. Vertical foregrip with a surefire on the rail it's a fine weapon. While it's not much shorter than my AR's it's almost half the weigh and bulk.
My M&P will always be first choice....I'm seriously considering a good semi-auto shotgun as my next purchase.
My M&P will always be first choice....I'm seriously considering a good semi-auto shotgun as my next purchase.
Originally posted by Smaug
Perhaps you should read up a bit more about what your handgun rounds (particularly with extra velocity from a carbine) do when they hit interior walls (they'll still go through plenty of them).
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
Birdshot can still penetrate interior walls and buckshot still doesn't penetrate as much as pistol bullets.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
Per their manufacturer's websites:
A Beretta CX4 is 29.7" in overall length, a Kel-Tec Sub2000 is 29.5" in overall length, a Marlin M1894 C is 36" in overall length, and a Hi-Point 9mm carbine is 31" in overall length.
Per Wikipedia (since they're no longer in production):
A Marlin Camp 9 is 35.5" in overall length and a Ruger PC9 is 34" in overall length.
By comparison, my Saiga with a Tapco Warsaw-Length fixed stock is 34.5" in overall length. I could probably shorten it up a bit by installing a T6 collapsable stock, but I really don't feel the need. A carbine, shotgun, or rifle is, to me, a gun to barricade yourself into a room with. If I have to move about my house for some reason, I'll use a handgun.
I wouldn't count on anything that comes out of the barrel of a firearm to be "non-lethal". As such, if the situation has degraded to the point that I need to bring a firearm to bear, then it has already degraded past the point of "non-lethal" being useful.
Perhaps you should read up a bit more about what your handgun rounds (particularly with extra velocity from a carbine) do when they hit interior walls (they'll still go through plenty of them).
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
Birdshot can still penetrate interior walls and buckshot still doesn't penetrate as much as pistol bullets.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
Per their manufacturer's websites:
A Beretta CX4 is 29.7" in overall length, a Kel-Tec Sub2000 is 29.5" in overall length, a Marlin M1894 C is 36" in overall length, and a Hi-Point 9mm carbine is 31" in overall length.
Per Wikipedia (since they're no longer in production):
A Marlin Camp 9 is 35.5" in overall length and a Ruger PC9 is 34" in overall length.
By comparison, my Saiga with a Tapco Warsaw-Length fixed stock is 34.5" in overall length. I could probably shorten it up a bit by installing a T6 collapsable stock, but I really don't feel the need. A carbine, shotgun, or rifle is, to me, a gun to barricade yourself into a room with. If I have to move about my house for some reason, I'll use a handgun.
I wouldn't count on anything that comes out of the barrel of a firearm to be "non-lethal". As such, if the situation has degraded to the point that I need to bring a firearm to bear, then it has already degraded past the point of "non-lethal" being useful.
John Eastwood
New member
First round in the nine-shot 12 guage is non-lethal rubber birdshot. Sounds good enough to me in court: ''I tried but........''
@ Webley
I had seen that before. I had forgotten the conclusion about bird shot.
O buck and OO buck seem good. Better than pistols rounds for penetration. (meaning fewer sheets)
Pistol rounds penetrated plenty, but not as much as 223!
It is also worth mentionting that real walls are not 1 inch apart, so if the bullets are tumbling through walls 1" apart, we still don't know how many real walls 10' apart they would penetrate.
Penetrating 3 or 4 walls would be enough for me to injure my neighbor, so none of these is any good from that standpoint.
The Glasers seem to be the best, if one is going to use a handgun.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm
(6 walls instead of 12+) and I'd bet a month's salary that if the walls were not inches apart, it would only penetrate one wall, and by the time it got to a second, it would be just tiny BBs pinging around.
I had seen that before. I had forgotten the conclusion about bird shot.
O buck and OO buck seem good. Better than pistols rounds for penetration. (meaning fewer sheets)
Pistol rounds penetrated plenty, but not as much as 223!
It is also worth mentionting that real walls are not 1 inch apart, so if the bullets are tumbling through walls 1" apart, we still don't know how many real walls 10' apart they would penetrate.
Penetrating 3 or 4 walls would be enough for me to injure my neighbor, so none of these is any good from that standpoint.
The Glasers seem to be the best, if one is going to use a handgun.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm
(6 walls instead of 12+) and I'd bet a month's salary that if the walls were not inches apart, it would only penetrate one wall, and by the time it got to a second, it would be just tiny BBs pinging around.
I dont really see the point in using a pistol caliber carbine for a home defense gun. If you want a gun that requires two hands, it would make more sense to me to use a shotgun, which also gives you substantially increased stopping power.
A pistol carbine requires two hands, which makes it a lot less convenient and less easy to handle than a pistol, but still fires a crappy pistol round. I would just as soon go with a handgun. A carbine is obviously going to be easier to shoot accurately at longer distances, but how important is that in a home defense gun?
A pistol carbine requires two hands, which makes it a lot less convenient and less easy to handle than a pistol, but still fires a crappy pistol round. I would just as soon go with a handgun. A carbine is obviously going to be easier to shoot accurately at longer distances, but how important is that in a home defense gun?
@ hogwiley
It depends on who's shooting it. When I posted this, I was thinking of my wife. She would handle a carbine a LOT more confidently than a handgun, which she barely has the strength to cock. And she limp-wrists them. She would never use a shotgun, due to the huge recoil.
As it turns out, she thinks carbines are ugly, so she won't use them either.
I'm beginning to really believe that a humble 22LR is the way to go for her.
Easier to shoot accurately = less chance of missing and going through 6+ walls maybe.hogwiley said:
Agree.hogwiley said:
To me, not really. They're pretty short. A pistol held at arm's length (which is how they would be shot without limp-wristing and causing a jam) is about the same or longer than a 30" long carbine.hogwiley said:
Just because rifle rounds are better outdoors for hunting, it doesn't mean that pistol rounds are "crappy." They're enough to do the deed on a human. Also, with an extra 20" of barrel, there is at least a 200 fps velocity advantage.
I bet it would be easier to shoot at shorter distances under stress, too.
It depends on who's shooting it. When I posted this, I was thinking of my wife. She would handle a carbine a LOT more confidently than a handgun, which she barely has the strength to cock. And she limp-wrists them. She would never use a shotgun, due to the huge recoil.
As it turns out, she thinks carbines are ugly, so she won't use them either.
I'm beginning to really believe that a humble 22LR is the way to go for her.I think that pistol caliber carbines are often overlooked when they should probably be one of the first options considered.
Most folks shoot long guns, even carbines, much better than they can shoot pistols. In addition, the controls on carbines are typically easier to operate than racking the slide on a pistol or pulling the double-action trigger on a revolver. People with low hand strength would be very well served by a carbine even when a pistol might be difficult for them to operate consistently.
They also reduce muzzle blast and report, reasonably important considerations for shooting indoors.
Most folks shoot long guns, even carbines, much better than they can shoot pistols. In addition, the controls on carbines are typically easier to operate than racking the slide on a pistol or pulling the double-action trigger on a revolver. People with low hand strength would be very well served by a carbine even when a pistol might be difficult for them to operate consistently.
They also reduce muzzle blast and report, reasonably important considerations for shooting indoors.
Actually, when you space the walls further apart, the .223 seems to penetrate even less.
http://230grain.com/showthread.php?65428-Ammunition-Drywall-Penetration-Analysis-Test-%28Adpat%29
http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=26
http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/njpdresources/pdfs/wallboard_test.pdf
The problem with Glasers is that they usually penetrate too shallowly in soft targets meaning that if you shoot the BG with them, you may not have enough penetration to reach the vitals. Overpenetration can be compensated for somewhat through tactics (positioning yourself so that an overpentrating shot poses the minimum risk to others) but underpenetration cannot.
A pistol is not always held at arm's length. I certainly don't come around corners with my arms stretched straight out in front of me. Also, I often shoot with my arms flexed somewhat which reduces the distance that my handgun protrudes.
Look, I'm not saying that a pistol-caliber carbine is a poor HD weapon because it isn't. All I'm saying is that I don't think it's considerably better than a .223 semi-auto rifle. If you want to buy a pistol-caliber carbine for HD, you'll be well served, but if you already own a compact semi-auto .223 I don't really think you're gaining much.
common calibers
personally as a reloader I love common calibers for defense....want to mention the overlooked lever action 38/357 rifle to supplement the multiple loads for your hand gun...but do have the berretta storm 40 to enhance our collection of 40 cal handguns..love the sig with drop in sig357 barrell. ps the storm does have KICK..for 40's
personally as a reloader I love common calibers for defense....want to mention the overlooked lever action 38/357 rifle to supplement the multiple loads for your hand gun...but do have the berretta storm 40 to enhance our collection of 40 cal handguns..love the sig with drop in sig357 barrell. ps the storm does have KICK..for 40's
Has anybody got real-world experience on the difference in noise and blast between firing a .223 rifle and a pistol-caliber carbine indoors? I'm no expert on that, but those short-barreled AR's do seem quite loud at the local indoor range. When I fire my .357 levergun the report seems hardly louder than a pistol.
Rugerismisticness
New member
CX4s have tons of mechanical issues. They frequently breakdown and aren't able to handle the heavy loads whithout cracking. Neat idea though! The HK USC is excellent for anything long term or long range. I was ringing 5" plates out to 250yards with a red dot and 230gr ball. I really like the idea of being able to load up 185gr+ps and having that amazing increase in MV, I'd guess your gaining 3-400fps out of a long gun barrel.
I have a two slot gun rack I built in the back of my closet. Most of the time my 16" AR is in one slot and a shotgun in the other. If my AR is for some reason (often my whim is enough reason) not there. I sleep soundly with any of my pistol caliber lever guns there. My M1 carbine runs a close second to the AR IMHO.