stagpanther
New member
Ah yes--I keep thinking for some reason it was faster than that. I spent a lot of time with it and never did get "BR-like" results with it and just shelved it.
Hand over scope to steady shot
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stagpanther
New member
Pretty interesting--I'm looking at Hodgdon's listings for the ARC and my QL says many of them are over-loaded and over-pressured. I assume they used a bolt gun to test; I know there is some difference between the two but it's pretty rare that a company lists a different load set for gas and non-gas guns--more complications to add to the mix.
Different load tables for different type of guns is not unheard of. Hornady has .223 and 5.56, .30-06 and service rifle etc. Hodgedon's online load center doesn't do as good a job. They just pool everything together. At the end of day, we the handloaders are the one who should make the wise decisions.
Sub-moa of my load may come with a bit of conflation. It hoovers around 1moa, mostly slightly under. It will spill over 1 if I slack off just a tiny bit. That's 1.5" at 150yd, not quite stacking over each kind of groups as in BR competitions.
-TL
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Sub-moa of my load may come with a bit of conflation. It hoovers around 1moa, mostly slightly under. It will spill over 1 if I slack off just a tiny bit. That's 1.5" at 150yd, not quite stacking over each kind of groups as in BR competitions.
-TL
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stagpanther
New member
Agreed--BUT a cartridge doesn't make up its mind whether or not it's going to shoot differently between a gas gun and a bolt gun if they are both made to SAAMI standards; might be some minor variation if there is a marked difference in chamber or freebore dimensions--or simply what the gun is rated to.
Just out of curiosity, I picked a random load of ARC cartridges in a combination I'd never used before (BLC-2 and 95 gr TMK) and went out for an "old times sake" test firing. And I used the "hand over scope technique" for the first time with my 20" monster barrel AR15.
First few shots were to foul the barrel and find the range, last time I shot the gun was over 200 yds. Then I shot this at 153 yds.
I've never got anywhere close to this previously; just one random load I picked off the top of my head (QL says it's near max but Hodgdon says it's much lower). The shot at the far upper right I took with exactly the same position and pull of the trigger--except no pressure on the top of the scope. Maybe the subsequent shots might have landed just as well next to it had I taken them without the hand on the scope thing--but here's the thing; the 4 shot group landed exactly where I did the did the elevation and windage adjustments to adjust on the SWFA scope--and of course the POA.
Might be mumbo jumbo voodoo--but that's how I'm shooting from now on off a rest (unless it's a heavy long-barreled rifle with a rigid long stock).
Just out of curiosity, I picked a random load of ARC cartridges in a combination I'd never used before (BLC-2 and 95 gr TMK) and went out for an "old times sake" test firing. And I used the "hand over scope technique" for the first time with my 20" monster barrel AR15.
First few shots were to foul the barrel and find the range, last time I shot the gun was over 200 yds. Then I shot this at 153 yds.
I've never got anywhere close to this previously; just one random load I picked off the top of my head (QL says it's near max but Hodgdon says it's much lower). The shot at the far upper right I took with exactly the same position and pull of the trigger--except no pressure on the top of the scope. Maybe the subsequent shots might have landed just as well next to it had I taken them without the hand on the scope thing--but here's the thing; the 4 shot group landed exactly where I did the did the elevation and windage adjustments to adjust on the SWFA scope--and of course the POA.
Might be mumbo jumbo voodoo--but that's how I'm shooting from now on off a rest (unless it's a heavy long-barreled rifle with a rigid long stock).
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Wow, that's very interesting. I can't wait to try that myself.
The outlying shot is 1", 0.7moa, high? Looks like the rifle has a bit of muzzle hop. It doesn't take much, only 0.007", to generate that sort of error. I recall similar observation years ago on my rem 700 in .30-06. With rear bag the poi was as much as 2moa higher than without. Guess where I put my supporting hand when it is not holding the rear bag? Holding the forearm down on the rest.
-TL
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The outlying shot is 1", 0.7moa, high? Looks like the rifle has a bit of muzzle hop. It doesn't take much, only 0.007", to generate that sort of error. I recall similar observation years ago on my rem 700 in .30-06. With rear bag the poi was as much as 2moa higher than without. Guess where I put my supporting hand when it is not holding the rear bag? Holding the forearm down on the rest.
-TL
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stagpanther
New member
You bet. Funny thing is--I'm wondering how much better all my other rifles might shoot; especially those I've locked up in the "dog kennel."
Tried it this afternoon on my AR in 6mm ARC. Unfortunately it didn't work. The group opened up. I reckon the rifle probably has little or no muzzle hop to begin with. The group opens up when I don't have the rear bag to help steady the aim. With try again in harder kicking calibers.
6-shot, 150yd
No hold. 0.9moa
Hold. 1.7moa.
-TL
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6-shot, 150yd
No hold. 0.9moa
Hold. 1.7moa.
-TL
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
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stagpanther
New member
Yes--I do use a rear bag to help. But I want to emphasize again that it's not an "absolute will always shoot better if you do this" thing, while muzzle flip may be a factor it really depends on how the rifle balances and where the front support is relative to the center of balance (what I call it). It's conceivable that putting pressure on the scope depending on how the rifle balances could make it harder to maintain consistency shot to shot. You should be able to see through the optic less movement of the reticle when applying the pressure relative to than when not applying that pressure (including when pulling the trigger and the shot breaks). When I see a constant stillness I like to call that moment the "posilock."
For sure. Different setups have their own particulars. I squeeze the rear bag for adjusting POA, so I can't have that if my supporting hand is somewhere else.
I'm still doing slightly below 1moa. No complaints there. I'm taking her out to 300yd next, expecting better than 1.2moa. No it probably won't work with the wind and lousy bullet BC. With wind corrections, I hope I will have good hit rate on half a printer paper.
-TL
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I'm still doing slightly below 1moa. No complaints there. I'm taking her out to 300yd next, expecting better than 1.2moa. No it probably won't work with the wind and lousy bullet BC. With wind corrections, I hope I will have good hit rate on half a printer paper.
-TL
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georgehwbush
New member
methinks that basicly you are just adding "non-ringing" weight to the system, which should always add stability to it. but; mussel tension must remain constant or you change the dynamics.
i have shot both ways myself, and with varying results from day to day, it seems very sensitive to mussel tension to me.
one might test with just adding a sand bag over the scope ?
(a light one, say five pounds)
i have shot both ways myself, and with varying results from day to day, it seems very sensitive to mussel tension to me.
one might test with just adding a sand bag over the scope ?
(a light one, say five pounds)
georgehwbush
New member
and yes stagpanther those are very robust scopes and if the mounts are top notch quality, they are very ridgid.
i have one that fell 7feet onto hardwood floor and didn't even have to rezero. (ask me no questions, i'll tell you no lies) it did fold the end of the sunshade down a little bit though. i have 5 of them in total and love them. have and would recommend to anyone.
i have one that fell 7feet onto hardwood floor and didn't even have to rezero. (ask me no questions, i'll tell you no lies) it did fold the end of the sunshade down a little bit though. i have 5 of them in total and love them. have and would recommend to anyone.
I squeeze my rear sandbag also when shooting from a bench.
When shooting from my hunting blind (it’s pretty big) I have a 1x4 that I put across the inner frame work parallel to my rifle for my shooting hand’s elbow to rest on. This stabilizes the rear of the stock with the help of my non shooting hand while the forearm rests on a strip of pipe insulation that’s on the bottom of the window frame. This more closely mimics my bench shooting, holding the forearm would be basically impossible.
When shooting from my hunting blind (it’s pretty big) I have a 1x4 that I put across the inner frame work parallel to my rifle for my shooting hand’s elbow to rest on. This stabilizes the rear of the stock with the help of my non shooting hand while the forearm rests on a strip of pipe insulation that’s on the bottom of the window frame. This more closely mimics my bench shooting, holding the forearm would be basically impossible.
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I believe a couple of things are going on here.
A properly mounted, leveled, with properly lapped scope rings should not need any pressure on the scope mount. In fact, that pressure should be detrimental.
This reminds of the technique of applying slight pressure with your support hand thumb against the frame in rapid fire pistol shooting to make up for sloppy trigger work.
It improves accuracy and it works to cover up other flaws.
So, going back to Murphy's Laws of Combat....
If it is Stupid and it works, It is not Stupid.
stagpanther
New member
I like that.
The recoil force on the shooter's shoulder creates a torque to rotate the muzzle upwards. If such torque exceeds certain value, depends the rifles weight and other factors, muzzle jumps up when the rifle fires. It will affect the poi if it starts to happen before the bullet clears the bore. It is possible, especially with AR's inline barrel arrangement and light weight bullet, to have zero muzzle jump. The rifle just recoil straight backwards.
Muzzle jump, muzzle rise, muzzle climb, and some other names. I call it muzzle hop to be inline with bipod hop as in preloading bipod.
-TL
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