Hand loads for personal defense?

I would advise using factory ammo. However as was pointed out IN COLORADO where the previous poster lives, as do I, you cannot be held criminally or civily liable for a good shoot... in or out of your house. Same in Florida now.

Hope you enjoyed your house.
Click to expand...
 
yes
You are 100 % correct. I am not sure about all states but here in California you would most likely face pre meditated charges with hand loads. My CCW class instructor says he has seen it. He says to use gold speer as it is what the police use. If a lawyer tried to claim the hollow points were made to kill you can counter with the truth which is they are made so as not to over penetrate and hit innocent bystanders thus why the police use them after reviewing many rounds for official use.

Not trying to be mean but that guy that said nah needs to be carful in the advice he gives. This is potentialy the rest of this persons life if he got convicted. Just my thoughts and the info i have for my state. Good luck!
Click to expand...

So your instructor has seen it, but you have not. I am not believing it. I have been told lots of things that turned out less than 100% by instructors. I was told by an instructor at Thunder Ranch that I could not own a ballistic vest becasue the box was marked "For Law Enforcement Use Only." I was told by Tom Givens of Rangemaster that it was illegal for my to point a gun at a person on my own property if they were not actually threatening me or that I could not shoot to defend property. Neither instructor was right in regard to Texas law.

As far as the ignorance of his statement, let me counter with offering that the great Ayoob himself hasn't produced any shooter-lost lawsuits based on handloads and he has been preaching against them a long time. Contrary to this, he has produced to court cases where the POLICE were sued based on gun choice and ammo choice. Based on his long history of sleuthing things, he has more shown cases against using factory ammo chosen by the cops than he does handloads (see Highroad thread below).

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=89289&highlight=ayoobian

Somewhat counter to his position, Ayoob pointed out in case one, "Things like attacking the officer's gun or ammunition are the sort of things that are predictably used by lawyers who have no substantive."

The real problem with using what the police use is that they may be using ammo that meets their specific needs, not yours. As a non-LEO, I can't get on the radio and yell that an officer needs assistance and have 20 fellow officers show up inside of 3 minutes. Generally speaking, if I need and am in a shooting, I probably will not be wearing body armor. When I purchase my ammo, my ammo choice is made by me, not by some beaurocrat in an office downtown who has gone with the lowest bidder to supply ammo for my department.

So in comparison to what the police use, I often don't want what the police use. I want something better.

Also, which police do you use as your standard. Does it have to be your immediate local police? Can you use what the Sheriff's office uses? How about what the FBI uses? Constable? Ranger? Dog catcher? Homeland Security? Treasury Dept? Here locally in north Texas, many depts. choose their own special ammo based on needs and supplier. Some allow the officers to choose whatever ammo they want to use off of a specified list of 'quality' rounds.
 
00 naught spy guy. I went back to the posts you are

showing, it does not appear that you have changed your mind. Have you changed anyone else's?

I think I can agree with you regarding your thoughts. I kind of wish I lived in Texas. But I don't.

Regarding civillian ability to do all these freerights things. Well it has been so long since I was able to think for myself in California I might just have forgot. :eek:

Seriously, In CA people actually have a lot more rights then they do in the rest of the country.
It just depends on who you are and what you do in a lot of the southern states I have visited.
Even though CA is considered a liberal state we have a Republican Gov. :p

We just have so many more people in the state that if we were not the way we are, it would be similar to other countries where they have so many people per square foot. As in uncivilized.

When you have more elbow room you are able to think for yourselves, and do what you want to do even if it is only, what you want to do...

I think the way the Texans are handling the Hurricanes show's they can do a good job.

I am not sure this makes sense but it does to me. When you go over to the civil side of life, you give up a lot of your rights.

Pretty complicated if you ask me.
Oh, pass me one of those tin hats will you? :o

Harley
 
I can't believe that some people get worried about having the wrong ammo because of what some gunwriter quasi-aficiando guy wrote in an article. Ayoob had a weak moment and had a deadline to meet and said the wrong thing. It happens.

It's just a spooky story. No one has ever posted any proof/case cites to substantiate the rumor.

Could this be a non-handloader (phobia)?

Ok, fess up. Who handloads and wont carry their own ammo for sheer legalistic fear (and how long have you been reloading?!).

I use handloads (almost) exclusively in my revolvers but do carry factory in the autos. Not to try to be politically correct with the ammo but because I handload lead, and desire to carry a premium hollowpoint so buy factory.

I betcha dollar (not) that none of the people worried about it are established handloaders. :p :D
 
When you go over to the civil side of life, you give up a lot of your rights.
Click to expand...

So for the rest of us in the fly over zone, we should continue to evolve from neanderthal man to human. At that point in time, utopia will be realized, we may all live in peace. What good are rights for the civilized man?

Our utopian government will tell us what is right and what is wrong. It is only our duty to follow their orders, oops!, I mean guidlines, much like a prisoner/slave in a cage. If this we do, we will get our vouchers for bread and milk and will avoid any troubles with the KGB.


Sorry, that quote really bothers me. And I haven't even had my coffee yet. Maybe once I do, I won't care anymore.....
 
Yes, but you'll have to spend x-thousand extra dollars hiring the necessary expert witnesses, having certified, notarized, court-approved chrono testing done at an approved range, and so on, in order to beat it.
Click to expand...
You'll have to spend money on experts, lawyers, testing, etc. no matter what you get sued for.

So then the question becomes, why bother? Are handloads really that much better than my Speer Gold Dots for a defensive pistol? Not ever having done any reloading, I have no idea.
Click to expand...
Why bother? In my Glock, there's no reason to bother. I found WWB 230gr. JHP's perform well out of my gun.

I had a hard time finding 38's that would perform out of my 1-7/8" 357 airlite revolver. I handloaded until I got up to the velocity I could handle and backed off. Much less recoil than a 357, but had decent velocity. I could have wasted a lot of time and money trying different premium factory self-defense loads. In the slim, slim chance I have to use these, I will most likely get sued anyway. Let them try to argue I shot the guy with extra deadly 850-fps loads in my 357.
 
Let's see now.....

"From what I have heard, no one has been able to produce any links or other evidence that using handloads will get you prosecuted. If it's a justifiable shoot, it's a justifiable shoot."


"Do you honestly think that forensics could tell the difference?"

"Handloads leading to a lawsuit - hogwash."

"There are absolutely no grounds for prosecution based no handloads, trigger jobs, acessory sights, grips, blah, blah, ad nauseum. Urban myth."

If you think so, read this:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_4_51/ai_n11840291

Hey, it's your $30,000. If you want to spend it on a defense attorney, be my guest.

Fortunately, here in Florida, the new law makes this much less of a problem.
I’ll still be carrying 9BPLE or CorBon or Federal Hydra-Shoks.

John
Cape Canaveral
 
"From what I have heard, no one has been able to produce any links or other evidence that using handloads will get you prosecuted. If it's a justifiable shoot, it's a justifiable shoot."


"Do you honestly think that forensics could tell the difference?"

"Handloads leading to a lawsuit - hogwash."

"There are absolutely no grounds for prosecution based no handloads, trigger jobs, acessory sights, grips, blah, blah, ad nauseum. Urban myth."

If you think so, read this:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/artic...51/ai_n11840291

Hey, it's your $30,000. If you want to spend it on a defense attorney, be my guest.

Fortunately, here in Florida, the new law makes this much less of a problem.
I’ll still be carrying 9BPLE or CorBon or Federal Hydra-Shoks.

John
Cape Canaveral
Click to expand...

Hay, didn't we already establish that Mr. Ayoob ISN'T a quoteable authority on this issue? He's a MAGAZINE writer and has not cited any legal authority on the issue. In fact, his "authority" for the article was a couple of cases which he was involved in as an expert witness yet gives no detail as to the outcome/verdict.

I kinda wonder why. Lets see; no citeable legal precedent, no outcome stated as to the result in the cases he uses as "authority" for his statements, and writing about it (for the Umpteenth time) got him a paycheck. Seems kind of suspect to me in the logic chain. Certainly insufficient for evidentiary use or true authority.

My opinion, this is an urban myth. Juries will do what juries usually do - whatever they feel like and whether you use factory ammo or handloads, you still run the risk of being hauled into court and losing. But then again, you run that risk everyday with your car too.

Me, I ain't losing no sleep over it.
 
Since there is no agreement on whether handloads can potentially get one sued, is it possible that agreement is possible on another front? That it is far better to be alive and getting sued than the other possibility. If it were to come down to it, I would care less on what I have loaded than that it does the job. That in itself is another discussion.

I hold to my view that there will always be those, that when shown a doughnut, will see the hole first.
 
That it is far better to be alive and getting sued than the other possibility.
Click to expand...

The problem isn't getting sued so much as being prosecuted.

In any case, you don't have to choose. It's like saying, "I can drive without insurance. I'll worry about surviving the wreck. Nobody ever showed me any case law concerning anyone getting arrested for no insurance and sued for damages. It is far better to be alive and getting sued than dead in a car wreck".

I see no reason to go out of my way to look for trouble.

John
cape Canaveral
 
But on the other hand, lots of cases can be cited where people were prosecuted for driving without insurance. So that wouldn't be a correct analogy.

Supposing I succumb to the ideal of carrying politically correct ammo. I got my factory hollowpoints. Uh oh, now they say their cop killer bullets, better carry FMJ. What would I (you) carry if they come out with some trash like FMJ's are ricochet prone? or well known to over penetrate?

It'd be a moot point that you had regular gas in your car instead of premium when you run someone over. I'm more worried about my front sight than I am my ammo.
 
In the first example in that Massad Ayoob article, the prosecution's attack on handloads fell apart.

In the second, couldn't you have the same problem with factory ammunition?

You shot him with a factory round? No problem. We call the factory, get 50 rounds of identical amino of the same lot, do the GSR testing, and determine virtually to the inch the actual distance involved.
Click to expand...

Sure, no problem, assuming you have the box with the lot number on it, and the factory still has samples from that lot. How long do they keep samples from every lot they made? I have a couple boxes of Federal Hydra-Shoks I'm sure were made before 1993. If I use them, will I end up in the same boat as if I had used handloads in that second scenario? That's something to think about even if you only use factory ammunition.
 
In the first example in that Massad Ayoob article, the prosecution's attack on handloads fell apart.
Click to expand...

And what does it cost to get to trial? A guy I know was arrested for man-2 on weak evidence. The judge threw out the case after 4 hours. It still cost him over $20,000!

Sure, no problem, assuming you have the box with the lot number on it, and the factory still has samples from that lot.
Click to expand...

If the company is still in business, they have the ammo. Federal law requires them to keep a stock of each lot. Can you imagine what it costs Winchester? :rolleyes:

John
Cape Canaveral
 
In the first example, were the handloads the reason he went to trial? I suspect he was going to be in a courtroom anyway, regardless of his ammunition choice. If he had used factory ammunition, they'd probably have attacked whatever choice he made there.

Attorneys hungry to nail you, whether in criminal or in civil court, need some hook on which to hang their argument that your actions constituted malice against the person who forced you to shoot him. We saw it with anyone who went to court after firing Black Talon ammo in self-defense, during the period when that cartridge was ludicrously demonized by the press and the politicians. We've seen it for decades, right up to the present, with the use of hollow-point amino. Appellate lawyer Lisa Steele is right now speaking for multiple individuals who suffered either conviction or enhanced sentences because juries bought lawyers' arguments that the use of HP ammunition was cruel, unusual, and malicious. A lawyer who knows his stuff--which the original trial lawyers in those cases of Lisa's apparently didn't--can defeat the hollowpoint argument easily. The simplest avenue is to show the jury that virtually all cops carry HPs. But that argument isn't available for handloads.
Click to expand...

The key is "Attorneys hungry to nail you". Those guys are going to be on you no matter what you do. The information Ayoob presented indicates that factory ammunition is subject to the same frivilous attacks as handloads. And if that paragraph is accurate, the attacks on the use of factory ammunition have been successful.

Anyway, I think there's more than enough material here for anyone to make up their mind about it. If anyone has any doubts about whether or not to use handloads, then don't do it.
 
I think someone said it before but I'll say it again. Why, if we are so worried about being sued, why are we carrying weapons?


BTW I carry three things. My faithful sidearm, My Umbrella Policy, and my attorney's Phone Number.

How many out there have had to sue someone? How many have found out how hard it is to collect? Yes, there is the expense of an attorney but in my case, that is why I carry liability insurance. As to losing my house (as someone glibly stated was a possibility), remember my question regarding suing someone. Easy to do, harder to collect. Even if a moronic jury awards damages above and beyond the limits of insurance policy, there is bankruptcy protection. By the time all the exemptions are figured out and assets found (good luck here, remember the O. J. Simpson retirement plan exemption), there isn't much left over for the "payout". If anyone wants to sue me fine. Good luck on collecting.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top