Hand loads for personal defense?

There are absolutely no grounds for prosecution based no handloads, trigger jobs, acessory sights, grips, blah, blah, ad nauseum. Urban myth. A righteous shoot is just that, doesntmatter if you used a .17 Mach 2, or a .50 BMG. You had the right to defend yourself, you saw the need, and you took the oppurtunity.

In civil cases, its a different matter. The fact it, if you kill someone, you will be sued. It might be frivolous, it might be bogus, but it will be a lawsuit. You might lose on technicalities such as handloads, etc, but I would venture to guess the same would apply to long hair, and driving a Camaro. The plaintiff will use anything, and it doesnt matter what you prevent, they will go after something else.
 
This question has been asked a 1000 times. It is a variant of will some kind of gun make me more vulnerable to a suit.

The main evidence for this in the gun world usually resides in the writing of Massad Ayoob. Some people don't like him.

The next part of the debate is for someone to come up with a case from some legal search engine that is based on such issues. That has been hard to do. We do see DAs waving weapons around to incense juries do.

However, the issue would have to be noticed by the criteria of the legal databases as in appeal.

Thus, it is thought that the visible case criterion may not be good enough to determine the issue.

It is also said forth rightly that if you have a good shoot you will be ok.

However, again - are all shoots good or can they be ambiguous? Do we see DAs using the appearance of a weapon rhetorically in arguments to the jury? Would such theatrics influence a jury in an ambiguous shoot or would such issues make the search engines or case law?

These problems are not considered in the usual dismisal of the risk.

However, there is a literature on jury response and in that literature, weapons issues have influenced juries in simulated trials. I am fairly sure that ammo type hasn't be tested but other variables have and have influenced the simulated jury.

The answer to the question is that one can demonstrate weapons type risks in the lab in some circumstances. Similar presentation styles have been seen in court, where the researchers got their idea for the studies.

The solution is that one can avoid the extremes and/or make sure you have a lawyer that is knowledgeable of weapons issues and one who knows the jury research literature as the issue can be defused by expert presentation.

That is the real answer when this type of question comes up. Opinions by those based on anecdote and without real targeted expertise is not really helpful.
 
Any criminal or civil suit based on handloads alone (presuming it's a clean shooting) would fail for at least the following reasons:

1) Handloading is not an illegal practice
2) I could easily put a ballistic expert on the stand to explain reasons why people handload and the fact that there are more powerful factory ammuntion and guns on the market than the one that I had used in handload;
3) One could explain that handloading is more economical, it's a hobby, and it allows the shooter to shoot more often to become a better shot and that by being a better shot he lessened risk to innocents by HITTING HIS TARGET, which he was lawfully allowed to do in self defense.
4) Hollowpoints are perfectly legal;
5) The idea that hollowpoints are more deadly than FMJs as a basis for a lawsuit is hogwash and could easily be defeated because HPs are SAFER for innocents due to less overpenetration, and the police use them.
6) Handloading recycles spent brass and is more environmentally friendly than just throwing them away;

Bottom line, dead is dead and lethal force is lethal force. Any DA persuing a case against you on this grounds alone is soon to be out of a job for wasting resources. You can also threaten to file a frivolous prosectuion lawsuit against the city if they pursued the prosecution. Further you would win any civil case on this ground and can also ask for attorney fees for the frivolous case, or counter sue (I recommend pressing charges against the BG for assault and considering immediately filing an offensive lawsuit against anyone you are forced to use deadly force against for any number of tortious acts on the BG's part).
 
Glenn ~

Good post.

The solution is that one can avoid the extremes and/or make sure you have a lawyer that is knowledgeable of weapons issues and one who knows the jury research literature as the issue can be defused by expert presentation.
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Absolutely. When such a subject comes up (and it likely will), a good expert can shoot it down.

To my way of thinking, given that lawyers and their experts get paid by the minute, every single issue that I can reasonably avoid having come up in court, I'm going to do. Sure, a good lawyer can shoot down the silly notion that handloads are more deadly than factory loads, or that using a handload shows malice aforethought. But how much is that defense going to cost me, and wouldn't it be better to avoid such an unnecessary issue in the first place?

When it comes down to it, I'd rather my lawyer spent his court time positively establishing my case than to have him spend needless hours defending against stupid and really irrelevant stuff that nevertheless might sway the jury against me.

pax
 
I switched to Speer Gold Dot when I moved here to Merrimack, NH, since that's what the local cops use.
 
Fact vs. personal feelings, the final frontier. Is the .45 ACP better than the 9mm, does God exist, can you safely use handloads for self defense?

Fact says that the answer to the last question is yes.
 
can you safely use handloads for self defense?

Fact says that the answer to the last question is yes.

What about those double powder charges that blow you up? :D
 
The way I see it, if you get sued for using handloads, you were probably going to be sued anyway. There was a case in the news in Tampa years ago in which a homeowner was sued for shooting a home invader. The plaintiff's attorney made a big deal about the homeowner using a big, bad 357 against a poor little burglar with an itty-bitty little 22.

If you're getting sued by THAT guy- you're gonna get sued anyway.

I'd like to see someone make an effective case against me using handloaded 38 specials in my 357. Maybe I planned on making the guy die more slowly with my wimpy handloads?
 
A lot of the "arguments" on this issue are hogwash.

The fact is, a lot of states have laws that say that if someone is committing an illegal act and they get hurt of killed, they, or their estate, have NO LEGAL RECOURSE against any other party.

It's what "outlaw" means - being outside the law and it's protections. Thus, you even have a common-law defense against any claim by the BG even if your state doesn't have a specific law like this.

"It's your house"? Bwahahahahah! That's what homeowners insurance is for even assuming the BG (or his estate) get that far. I also agree that if you do have to shoot someone, immediately follow up with a pre-emptive lawsuit against the BG or his estate for damages. Better yet, get your insurance company to do so on your behalf since they have a right to recover for damages caused by 3d parties. (You shot the BG right? Bloody carpet - call the insurance adjuster. Insurance Co has a right to recover the damages from the BG. People who pay for damages caused by their actions are usually not sucessful claiming they were the aggrieved party.)

Ayoob is a magazine writer. He has to write things that get his articles sold. Thus, his magazine articles are NOT proper authority. If you know him (I don't) ask him and see if he tells you to talk to a lawyer or not. Betcha you can guess the answer to that one yourself.
 
First, IANAL, but best I recall at least here in Ga as well as back in Tx it is already illegal to modify your SD ammo in several manners including mercury or explosive loading. If you actually did such a thing with your loads, factory or handloaded, then you stand to be criminally prosecuted. But if what you are doing is just creating a custom tailored conventional SD load then the overriding concern is whether the shoot was justified or not -- not whether factory or handloads were used.

For instance, if I create a handload for my .357 Mag that essentially duplicates the performance of a popular factory SD load and uses the exact same bullet, but does so with less muzzle flash, am I to be held liable for it's use in a justifiable shoot? If so, why? Especially since low flash factory loads are available from other vendors. Why can't I opt for vendor A's bullet but emulate vendor B's flash charactaristics?

Why must I be satisfied with whatever is available from commercial vendors when I can create comparable ammo myself that has superior characteristics, especially since I know exactly what firearm my ammo will be used in and can tailor for it, but they don't know and therefore can't?
 
As far as if you got sued by that guy you are going to get sued anyway... It doesnt matter if you get sued so much as if you were to lose. I think its still 1 more arguement for the other side to make.

And for the people that say if you are justified, then you are justified... What if the scenerio was that you shot someone who lived and was say paralized. What if they sued you because "hand loads are the reason I was paralized?" Just a thought.
 
dark, you are living in a paranoid fantasy.

I carry handloads frequently in my revolvers for defense. I carry factory ammo in my semi autos, but only because I don't load .45ACP, 9mm or .40 nowdays.
 
Massad Ayoob has done at least one article on why we shouldn't use handloads. He cited lawsuits and prosecutions in which people were vilified by the opposing counsel for using handloads.

By his own admission, however, in the cases he cited, handloads were disproven to be a factor in the shooting. According to his article, IIRC, a 45 was chrono'ed to be similar to factory loadings. It was also argued the 45 had less muzzle energy than the 357's the local police used.

It doesnt matter if you get sued so much as if you were to lose.
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Okay, let me put it this way: if you were going to lose a lawsuit which scrutinized handloads, you were going to lose the lawsuit anyway.

If the only piece of evidence they have against you is the handloads, you're most likely going to beat it.

What if they sued you because "hand loads are the reason I was paralized?" Just a thought.
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If my handloaded 38's at 850 fps paralyzed him, what would the local sheriff's department's 9mm's, 357's, .40's, and 45's going to do to the guy? Or the 12 ga. in the cruiser? Present that evidence to the jury. A good lawyer, good expert witnesses, and a good jury are going to get you the justice you deserve. (none if you acted properly in self-defense)
 
"The way I see it, if you get sued for using handloads, you were probably going to be sued anyway."

That is something everyone should realize when they use deadly force. You can be 101% justified but you'll still be sued. That is what very few people realize when they CCW. How many carry liability insurance?
Even tho right it's still going to cost you attorney fees. Being right ain't cheap.
 
If the only piece of evidence they have against you is the handloads, you're most likely going to beat it.

Yes, but you'll have to spend x-thousand extra dollars hiring the necessary expert witnesses, having certified, notarized, court-approved chrono testing done at an approved range, and so on, in order to beat it.

So then the question becomes, why bother? Are handloads really that much better than my Speer Gold Dots for a defensive pistol? Not ever having done any reloading, I have no idea.
 
It used to be said "Save one round for yourself in case your about to be captured". Maybe that should be changed to "Save two rounds. One for the other guys lawyer, and one for yourself".

When I left the house today to go for a day trip to the ocean, I placed myself at risk from lots of sources. I could have been car-jacked at the gas pump (instead I was just robbed :rolleyes: ). I could have had an accident and who knows who would be suing me. I could have been trapped in the Supermarket by some crazed gunman that wanted all the change from the "Charity Jars".

I know, I am being sarcastic but the possibility of getting sued exists from so many directions you can either get on with life or worry. I like (and would follow this course) the suggestion to counter sue the BG's Estate for damages to your property (Blood, Other Bodily Fluids/Solids), and Attorney Fees. The more they lean on you, the more you lean back.

I hope I am never forced into a situation where I have to use deadly force again. I got enough experience in the Service. But if it should occur, I won't be worrying if my loads are factory or mine.

I have noticed that some very effective loads are available today and they minimize the desire on my part to "roll my own" defense loads. 30 years ago, I couldn't say the same.
 
Handloads when working for a city or agency

is usually against the Rules. You can get days off and fined or fired, depends.

Policy is the thing to worry about. If they can prove you were not,
within the policy of your department, you are facing a major problem.

I knew a guy who used to take the bullet out of his cartridge and reload it with the same stuff only hotter, put the bullet back and you really could not tell except he told everyone.
He was a true believer that he should do this to protect his life and others.
Did not like the 38 like it was and added some soup, he was probably the forerunner of +Ps. I think he carried a 6" also. Adds some power. That was the gun of choice long ago.

Supervisors got wind of it and explained in rollcall that was not the thing to do, no names mentioned. Times have changed.

I really don't know what he finally did or if he changed his style, I moved on shortly after that and never saw him again.

Guys like this actually probably did more good then harm, the Departments have gone the way of better ammo and handguns for their officers and other equipment to help them do the job they were hired to do.

I think with the stuff available to everyone in this day and age, the idea of loading your own just goes to show, that the person doing that is a flake :D and it will come out in different/other ways and they will hang themselves.

Harley
 
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