Hand loads for personal defense?
- Thread starter darkvibe
- Start date
leadcounsel
Moderator
Nah....
yes
You are 100 % correct. I am not sure about all states but here in California you would most likely face pre meditated charges with hand loads. My CCW class instructor says he has seen it. He says to use gold speer as it is what the police use. If a lawyer tried to claim the hollow points were made to kill you can counter with the truth which is they are made so as not to over penetrate and hit innocent bystanders thus why the police use them after reviewing many rounds for official use.
Not trying to be mean but that guy that said nah needs to be carful in the advice he gives. This is potentialy the rest of this persons life if he got convicted. Just my thoughts and the info i have for my state. Good luck!
You are 100 % correct. I am not sure about all states but here in California you would most likely face pre meditated charges with hand loads. My CCW class instructor says he has seen it. He says to use gold speer as it is what the police use. If a lawyer tried to claim the hollow points were made to kill you can counter with the truth which is they are made so as not to over penetrate and hit innocent bystanders thus why the police use them after reviewing many rounds for official use.
Not trying to be mean but that guy that said nah needs to be carful in the advice he gives. This is potentialy the rest of this persons life if he got convicted. Just my thoughts and the info i have for my state. Good luck!
the possum
New member
Hogwash.
There's about a thousand more important things to worry about.
There's about a thousand more important things to worry about.
+10 Absolutely correct.
If you handload, and you kill someone with one of your handloads, you will be sued, and you will lose. Never use handloads in a personal defense pistol. Practice with handloads all you want, but don't use them in a carry pistol. It leaves you open to some anti-gun DA being able to say, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury. Factory ammunition with all it's modern killing potential wasn't good enough for the defendent. He had to cook up his own handloads "hotter" than any commercial round, more certain to kill someone " (and so on ad endless nauseum...)
This is precisely why I'm not handloading Golden Sabres for my .380, though I would love to.
Garand Illusion
New member
+10 for absolutely wrong.
Don't know about other states ...
In Colorado if your are allowed to use lethal force then you are allowed to use lethal force. The logic you're using here is that I might be charged with pre-meditated murder (apparently I planned to have the BG break in) because I shot him with my hand loaded .380. Whereas I could have shot him with a factory produce .500 S&W and I'd be fine.
No jury is going to put away someone for criminal charges because they shot the serial rapist with a hand load.
As for a civil case ... I dunno. To make sure it's not a problem pass a law like Florida's or at LEAST like Colorado's.
Don't know about other states ...
In Colorado if your are allowed to use lethal force then you are allowed to use lethal force. The logic you're using here is that I might be charged with pre-meditated murder (apparently I planned to have the BG break in) because I shot him with my hand loaded .380. Whereas I could have shot him with a factory produce .500 S&W and I'd be fine.
No jury is going to put away someone for criminal charges because they shot the serial rapist with a hand load.
As for a civil case ... I dunno. To make sure it's not a problem pass a law like Florida's or at LEAST like Colorado's.
Yeah, I can see where you would get into trouble for making someone more dead.
Isn't a firearm considered a deadly weapon? The intent to kill is implicit in shooting someone, regardless of what happens to be coming out of the gun?
I'd like to see a reference to any case where someone who would have otherwise been found not guilty was convicted for using handloads.
I'd stick to factory ammunition, but for reasons of reliability rather than any legal concerns.
Isn't a firearm considered a deadly weapon? The intent to kill is implicit in shooting someone, regardless of what happens to be coming out of the gun?
I'd like to see a reference to any case where someone who would have otherwise been found not guilty was convicted for using handloads.
I'd stick to factory ammunition, but for reasons of reliability rather than any legal concerns.
MicroBalrog
New member
Can you link us to a precedent, please?
This goes into the same box with all the other "Use gun N and you will get sued" allegations.
urban myth
There is a new expression in the language - "urban myth".
Handloads leading to a lawsuit - hogwash. My Cal. Bar No. is 60822 and I also hold licenses in Nevada and New York.
Handloads leading to failures to fire; split cases, duds? Absolutely. Yeah, I know - YOUR RELOADS NEVER FAIL. It is always the other guy's reloads that fail. Yeah, right.
In 1979, I bought a case of Federal 12 ga. that were oversized and that could not function through anyone's Remington 1100 at the range. A few years ago, I had a dud US military issued 30-06 round. That's it folks. Conversely, I have had literally thousands of bad reloads supplied by homebrewers, guys who never before had reloads fail and two commercial reloaders .
If any one thinks that reloads in a handgun buy you better performance that US manufactured, quality ammo, he is wrong. My licensing was Class 23 - and that makes me an authority on ammunition.
There is a new expression in the language - "urban myth".
Handloads leading to a lawsuit - hogwash. My Cal. Bar No. is 60822 and I also hold licenses in Nevada and New York.
Handloads leading to failures to fire; split cases, duds? Absolutely. Yeah, I know - YOUR RELOADS NEVER FAIL. It is always the other guy's reloads that fail. Yeah, right.
In 1979, I bought a case of Federal 12 ga. that were oversized and that could not function through anyone's Remington 1100 at the range. A few years ago, I had a dud US military issued 30-06 round. That's it folks. Conversely, I have had literally thousands of bad reloads supplied by homebrewers, guys who never before had reloads fail and two commercial reloaders .
If any one thinks that reloads in a handgun buy you better performance that US manufactured, quality ammo, he is wrong. My licensing was Class 23 - and that makes me an authority on ammunition.
Johnny Guest
Moderator in Memoriam
I tend to hit a middle ground
Before I retired, under agency SOPs, I carried all factory ammo. We issued Speer Gold Dot HPs, and my sidearms shot it fine.
Since retirement, and being constrained only by good sense, I still prefer to carry a good factory load IN the sidearm, but am not bashful about carrying handloads as spare ammo.
In .45 ACP, I still carry factory 230 Gold Dot HP ammo, both loaded and for reloads.
In my snubbie .38s, it is a factory 158SWCHP, but frequently carry handloads in a speedloader or Bianchi Speed Strip.
I often carry a Model 65 S&W 3" with carefully assembled handloads - - 162 gr LSWC bullets cast from my old Saeco mould, over 7.0 gr of Unique in magnum cases. They clock an honest 1050 fps and are very accurate. This is a heavier load than .38 Spl +P, but more controlable and with less muzzle blast than full-house magnum loads.
Best,
Johnny
Before I retired, under agency SOPs, I carried all factory ammo. We issued Speer Gold Dot HPs, and my sidearms shot it fine.
Since retirement, and being constrained only by good sense, I still prefer to carry a good factory load IN the sidearm, but am not bashful about carrying handloads as spare ammo.
In .45 ACP, I still carry factory 230 Gold Dot HP ammo, both loaded and for reloads.
In my snubbie .38s, it is a factory 158SWCHP, but frequently carry handloads in a speedloader or Bianchi Speed Strip.
I often carry a Model 65 S&W 3" with carefully assembled handloads - - 162 gr LSWC bullets cast from my old Saeco mould, over 7.0 gr of Unique in magnum cases. They clock an honest 1050 fps and are very accurate. This is a heavier load than .38 Spl +P, but more controlable and with less muzzle blast than full-house magnum loads.
Best,
Johnny
Garand Illusion
New member
I love it. And since handloads make me absolutely NO MORE likely to lose it, I would use them if I saw the advantage. (since I don't load myself I actually don't, I buy premium SD ammo over the counter).
As has been said ... lots of people say this, but no one actually points to a case. And I have talked to a lawyer about this and he agreed that if you have cause to use lethal force, the type of lethal force isn't important.
The only time something like this could come in to play is if you had a relationship with the person, there were other suspicions, etc. -- but not if it's a clean shooting of an intruder.
Don't know why people get so attached to this urban myth. Maybe it's not a myth in some other states. Other states have some weird laws.
So now I'm going to go:
+20 for absolutely wrong!
If you have some kind of proof to back this assertion up, then by all means do so.
But you won't. It doesn't exist. At least not for my state.
Been in LE for over 34 yrs. Have investigated and supervised many, many shootings, some with handloads in handguns, shotguns, and in one case a rifle. I have never seen a case prosecuted because of handloads. Neither have I seen it brought up in any resulting civil case.
For many years I have researched and asked for a case cite of any case, criminal or civil, where handloads was the basis for the charges or suit. So far, I have yet to find a case nor has anyone produced a case. It should be simple enough for someone to do. All they have to do is provide the cite. Don't want to hear about somebody's instructor who says he "knows" or "has heard". If they "know" or "has heard" then they'll have a case cite. Just because they're an instructor, and for many that term is loosely defined, doesn't mean they know, just that they're repeating rumors. Next time someone says the "know" just ask them to provide a cite. I really want it if they have it.
For many years I have researched and asked for a case cite of any case, criminal or civil, where handloads was the basis for the charges or suit. So far, I have yet to find a case nor has anyone produced a case. It should be simple enough for someone to do. All they have to do is provide the cite. Don't want to hear about somebody's instructor who says he "knows" or "has heard". If they "know" or "has heard" then they'll have a case cite. Just because they're an instructor, and for many that term is loosely defined, doesn't mean they know, just that they're repeating rumors. Next time someone says the "know" just ask them to provide a cite. I really want it if they have it.
Edward429451
Moderator
I have handloads in my CA Bulldog right now. Loaded lighter than the factory SD loads to allow faster more accurate follow up shots because the gun is so light, and I may even be shooting one handed when/if I ever have to defend myself. Plus, I believe that placement is more important than sheer power.
Does this mean that I'll get credit with the prosecuting DA for premeditated niceness?
Does this mean that I'll get credit with the prosecuting DA for premeditated niceness?
Edward429451
Moderator
Thanks, I will. Good luck with that case of paranoia. 
If your definition of 'paranoia' means 'common sense', then I suppose I'm guilty as charged. I'll try to live with that.
One of Ayoob's articles.
One of Ayoob's articles.