Hand annealing brass
- Thread starter Yosemite Steve
- Start date
Joe-ker mentioned time, heat and distance, before that before that O'Hara mentioned a pan of water, cases and a torch; in all appearance no one was listening, or comprehending what was said.
Many years ago I decided there had to be rules, I applied the rules to an annealing tool, I know, I must have looked like a mad scientist. I took a few to a gun show and placed them on a table. Reloaders would come by and ask; "What are these?" and I would reply 'case annealers'. They would reply; "No they are not"
. F. Guffey
JeepHammer
Moderator
It's a progressive process... Like most things...
I don't like using the word 'Temper' with brass, since it only goes one way (softer), which would be DE-Temper.
Annealing fits pretty good, when someone uses 'Temper' with brass, I usually take what they say with a grain of salt...
As for 'Other Factors'...
Case neck turning is a waste of time if your brass is consistent to begin with, and the chamber reasonably fits the chamber.
I wasted a TON of time turning necks with little real world results when the brass was consistent and bent to fit the chamber.
Annealing showed better results returning the brass to a 'Baseline', consistent starting point.
I haven't found a bunch of difference in annealing methods as long as you DO NOT overheat the brass.
As long all brass are annealed the same (harder than it sounds) they all turn out pretty consistent with each other in the batch.
If you want a 'Like New' baseline point, it's harder to be consistent since you are annealing 'Deeper', and it requires more than 'Eyeball mk-1' and finger power/timing to determine heat saturation.
WAY too easy to overcook the brass and change it's alloy composition.
There have been endless micrographs posted showing this in action, and there are hundreds of professional & education sites that will educate you on this.
The cardinal rule is DON'T OVER HEAT the brass!
Luckily, most guys have this figured out and call out the 'Red Hot!' guys when they post.
The easiest way to NOT OVER HEAT the brass is simply to turn the heat being applied down a little, and take a little more TIME to make sure the heat saturates the brass.
This is REAL SIMPLE, but argued constantly. It should be common sense...
As I've pointed out before (a 100 times or more), manufacturers that still use flame use a long row of burners to saturate the brass (time), while limiting the peak temprature.
I would suggest to you that manufacturers have the best idea when using flame annealing. 100 years of serious scientific study to produce a product you all aspire to duplicate (at the very least) would be a good starting point when you are in your basic study of the process.
Again, common sense...
I don't like using the word 'Temper' with brass, since it only goes one way (softer), which would be DE-Temper.
Annealing fits pretty good, when someone uses 'Temper' with brass, I usually take what they say with a grain of salt...
As for 'Other Factors'...
Case neck turning is a waste of time if your brass is consistent to begin with, and the chamber reasonably fits the chamber.
I wasted a TON of time turning necks with little real world results when the brass was consistent and bent to fit the chamber.
Annealing showed better results returning the brass to a 'Baseline', consistent starting point.
I haven't found a bunch of difference in annealing methods as long as you DO NOT overheat the brass.
As long all brass are annealed the same (harder than it sounds) they all turn out pretty consistent with each other in the batch.
If you want a 'Like New' baseline point, it's harder to be consistent since you are annealing 'Deeper', and it requires more than 'Eyeball mk-1' and finger power/timing to determine heat saturation.
WAY too easy to overcook the brass and change it's alloy composition.
There have been endless micrographs posted showing this in action, and there are hundreds of professional & education sites that will educate you on this.
The cardinal rule is DON'T OVER HEAT the brass!
Luckily, most guys have this figured out and call out the 'Red Hot!' guys when they post.
The easiest way to NOT OVER HEAT the brass is simply to turn the heat being applied down a little, and take a little more TIME to make sure the heat saturates the brass.
This is REAL SIMPLE, but argued constantly. It should be common sense...
As I've pointed out before (a 100 times or more), manufacturers that still use flame use a long row of burners to saturate the brass (time), while limiting the peak temprature.
I would suggest to you that manufacturers have the best idea when using flame annealing. 100 years of serious scientific study to produce a product you all aspire to duplicate (at the very least) would be a good starting point when you are in your basic study of the process.
Again, common sense...
I've stayed out of thread until now. The AMP is the only annealing machine that backs up its method with science. Got oddball brass send them some samples and they will send you a program to use. The admission is steep, but the promise is alluring. I am satisfied. Can you do without it? Yes. Are there less expensive alternatives? Yes. They advertise this as the most accurate machine on the market. No one is denying their claim.
P.S. The new Aztec mode may be interesting for case sorting if proven out. Also doing your own test for 1 piece of sacrificial brass would interest me. I wish the Findleys and Adam McDonald would get together and give us some more innovation.
P.S. The new Aztec mode may be interesting for case sorting if proven out. Also doing your own test for 1 piece of sacrificial brass would interest me. I wish the Findleys and Adam McDonald would get together and give us some more innovation.
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JeepHammer
Moderator
There are a few issues with AMP from a engineering standpoint.
1. Time. Time is a factor in all brass annealing, and AMP uses a very FAST cycle.
Not saying they don't 'Soften' the brass, which can be done quickly, but grain structure forming takes time.
2. Instead of relying strictly on 'Softening' (hardness test), I'd like to see micrographs of grain structure.
They *May* do micrographs, they just don't advertise much about it... So it's a question for me.
3. I didn't see ANY test results on bullet retention force or consistency of bullet release force.
Access to an accurate force dyno opened my eyes to consistency/grain structure reforming.
Again, don't know if AMP people do this testing or ignore it since they don't publish anything about it.
4. The further up the education/testing curve you go, the more you are going to spend.
Initial cost can get you started, but if you SERIOUSLY get into it, it's going to cost you time & money!
I NEVER thought I'd have to prepare micrograph samples (pain in the butt!), Aquire & calibrate for Rockwell B scale testing for brass hardness testing, etc.
Even when I was paying for samples to be tested, it cost money, now it costs a lot less, but a lot more time...
The point is, still expensive & time consuming no matter how it happens.
I don't own an AMP, haven't seen one except for the SHOT show, so I have no specific opinion of AMP.
I have the same questions about every annealing process, flame, hot dies, induction annealing, hot liquid, any way of annealing poses the same questions...
AMP seems to give good guidelines with their timer presents, but I don't take anyone's word blindly, and it's not in my nature not to check up on the finished product quality control.
(Yes, it's OCD to most people, but most people don't supply brass to match shooting teams)
1. Time. Time is a factor in all brass annealing, and AMP uses a very FAST cycle.
Not saying they don't 'Soften' the brass, which can be done quickly, but grain structure forming takes time.
2. Instead of relying strictly on 'Softening' (hardness test), I'd like to see micrographs of grain structure.
They *May* do micrographs, they just don't advertise much about it... So it's a question for me.
3. I didn't see ANY test results on bullet retention force or consistency of bullet release force.
Access to an accurate force dyno opened my eyes to consistency/grain structure reforming.
Again, don't know if AMP people do this testing or ignore it since they don't publish anything about it.
4. The further up the education/testing curve you go, the more you are going to spend.
Initial cost can get you started, but if you SERIOUSLY get into it, it's going to cost you time & money!
I NEVER thought I'd have to prepare micrograph samples (pain in the butt!), Aquire & calibrate for Rockwell B scale testing for brass hardness testing, etc.
Even when I was paying for samples to be tested, it cost money, now it costs a lot less, but a lot more time...
The point is, still expensive & time consuming no matter how it happens.
I don't own an AMP, haven't seen one except for the SHOT show, so I have no specific opinion of AMP.
I have the same questions about every annealing process, flame, hot dies, induction annealing, hot liquid, any way of annealing poses the same questions...
AMP seems to give good guidelines with their timer presents, but I don't take anyone's word blindly, and it's not in my nature not to check up on the finished product quality control.
(Yes, it's OCD to most people, but most people don't supply brass to match shooting teams)
I did lots of research before I spent that much money. This article and the follow up will answer most of your questions including microscopic examination of grain structure. They put in lots of lab time to develop this product. The issue is do they deliver on the research. I think they do. I do not think any other manufacturer puts in the research and time to prove out their machine. They also dispel some myths at the beginning that many people still believe. Who thinks that the zinc will burn off if the case is overheated? They have a follow up to part one and in part two they end with questions they will pursue in further research.
Secondly they have pushed the boundaries of what there machine can do. I would bet they have researched what happens as current is passed through the brass. The Aztech mode probably uses a change in conductivity (by current drops) as the point at which the brass is ruined and work back from that point to determine the calibrated anneal point. The sorting mode is probably determined by using a referenced voltage or current and measuring the other to determine the sorting number. This will have to be proven to have an advantage to reloading before I buy into it as anything other than an interesting use of the machine. The self calibration is interesting as it could ease all worries over individual variances in the machine.
But to close these people have put in the time and continue to put in the time to improve and develop their machine. I can't see this as a bad thing or a bad machine. It also explains the high cost of entry.
Secondly they have pushed the boundaries of what there machine can do. I would bet they have researched what happens as current is passed through the brass. The Aztech mode probably uses a change in conductivity (by current drops) as the point at which the brass is ruined and work back from that point to determine the calibrated anneal point. The sorting mode is probably determined by using a referenced voltage or current and measuring the other to determine the sorting number. This will have to be proven to have an advantage to reloading before I buy into it as anything other than an interesting use of the machine. The self calibration is interesting as it could ease all worries over individual variances in the machine.
But to close these people have put in the time and continue to put in the time to improve and develop their machine. I can't see this as a bad thing or a bad machine. It also explains the high cost of entry.
This page is very interesting. It shows the resistivity coefficient of brass more than doubles as the temperature increases by 480C. This could explain a lot about Aztech. It also would give a general description of mass with a calibrated voltage/amperage applied explaining the sorting mode. Once again shows some out of the box thinking and dedication of these guys. Ain't science wonderful.
Without a doubt Amp gives a perfect anneal however how much is a perfect anneal worth at the range. I am just learning here but I what I am leaning toward is that it is more having the right powder and correct charge that counts the most in getting consistent velocities
Case prep and good neck tension has its purpose of course but as long as you get consistent velocities and good case life that is all that matters
Case prep and good neck tension has its purpose of course but as long as you get consistent velocities and good case life that is all that matters
JeepHammer
Moderator
Exactly!
Science is what some of us have been talking all along...
Science is what some of us have been talking all along...
And if you read what I said the candle does not produce a lot of heat, the candle will get the case hot enough but it takes a long time. And then there is the other part you missed, heat travels and then it gets complicated. By the time the necks gets hot enough to anneal the head of the case is too hot, holding the case by hand is cute, I do not do it.
F. Guffey
I like to play around in my shop so being a bit bored
I took a piece of .260 with a loose primer pocket, one of the wife's candles from the sunroom (ssssshhhhh she does not know), some 750 Templaq, two thermometers one a infrared and one a industrial thermometer with a thermo couple. After 2 minutes of direct candle flame the neck got up to 350 degrees farienheit measuring with the infrared on blackened brass. Then I tried using the thermocouple unit the temp was lower than that because the probe was acting as a heat sink, 184 was max temp. The 750 Templaq was never melted. The base was still hold able after 2 minutes but the neck temp had plateaued and the heat was creeping toward the base
There is no doubt candle annealing is a huge waste of time and effort
NERD ALERT BORING STUFF AHEAD
If you want the science behind that remember heat is energy and that energy that is generated when wax the changes from chemical energy stored in the wax to heat. Candle wax's calorific value = 8.4 kJ/g1 joule = 0.0009478134 btu. To determine how much heat/energy is generated by burning a wax candle, multiply its weight in grams times 8400 and then multiply by 0.0009478134. Then measure to see how many grams of wax are being consumed per minute and you can calculate the energy generated per second/minute/hour. The candle burns at almost 1500 degrees but the wax burns so slowly that the brass casing is radiating the heat off into the surrounding air as the candle generates it
I took a piece of .260 with a loose primer pocket, one of the wife's candles from the sunroom (ssssshhhhh she does not know), some 750 Templaq, two thermometers one a infrared and one a industrial thermometer with a thermo couple. After 2 minutes of direct candle flame the neck got up to 350 degrees farienheit measuring with the infrared on blackened brass. Then I tried using the thermocouple unit the temp was lower than that because the probe was acting as a heat sink, 184 was max temp. The 750 Templaq was never melted. The base was still hold able after 2 minutes but the neck temp had plateaued and the heat was creeping toward the base
There is no doubt candle annealing is a huge waste of time and effort
NERD ALERT BORING STUFF AHEAD
If you want the science behind that remember heat is energy and that energy that is generated when wax the changes from chemical energy stored in the wax to heat. Candle wax's calorific value = 8.4 kJ/g1 joule = 0.0009478134 btu. To determine how much heat/energy is generated by burning a wax candle, multiply its weight in grams times 8400 and then multiply by 0.0009478134. Then measure to see how many grams of wax are being consumed per minute and you can calculate the energy generated per second/minute/hour. The candle burns at almost 1500 degrees but the wax burns so slowly that the brass casing is radiating the heat off into the surrounding air as the candle generates it
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I'm going to assume annealing matters most when you do not have a tuned load. A tuned load gives you a flat spot that forgives exact charge, at least for first few hundred yards, and small temperature errors, so it follows that small start pressure errors from different bullet pull will be forgiven, too. It's when you are in an unforgiving place in barrel rate of change that absolute consistency can pull groups in most noticeably. That's going to apply to all aspects of the load, some to a greater degree than others.
As to the time needed for the brass to "soak", you can probably count on the general rule of reactions in chemistry that they will happen faster as things get hotter. From the chart I put up, you can see that complete stress relief takes a whole hour at 300°C (572°F). We know from watching videos of brass manufacturers doing it that at the temperatures they typically use of around 650-750°F or so, you see it happen in the ten to twenty-second range. The chemistry rule of thumb is reaction speeds double every 18°F (10°C), so going from 572° to 698°F is doubling 7 times. 2⁷=128, so we expect it to happen 128 times faster at that temperature or in 28 seconds, and 14 seconds at 716°F, 7 seconds at 734°F, 3.5 seconds at 752°F, etc. This won't be exact do to inertia in grains and other factors, but you can see from the time frames that it is in the ballpark pretty well. Naturally, this estimate assumes the heat has penetrated the brass before the clock starts, but with brass thermal diffusivity at nearly 40 mm²/s, that will occur in under a second. For induction heating, the heat is generated internally and the surface is actually cooler than the inside, so this isn't a concern.
Hounddawg,
Regarding candle annealing, the standard tabletop candle flame is rather larger than that of a votive light candle or a birthday candle, so keep flame size in mind. Most IR thermometers have circular reading regions. They will not give an accurate reading of a case neck unless the black of the neck completely fills the circle. You will need a FLIR camera to get an accurate localized reading in an area smaller than the circle.
As to the time needed for the brass to "soak", you can probably count on the general rule of reactions in chemistry that they will happen faster as things get hotter. From the chart I put up, you can see that complete stress relief takes a whole hour at 300°C (572°F). We know from watching videos of brass manufacturers doing it that at the temperatures they typically use of around 650-750°F or so, you see it happen in the ten to twenty-second range. The chemistry rule of thumb is reaction speeds double every 18°F (10°C), so going from 572° to 698°F is doubling 7 times. 2⁷=128, so we expect it to happen 128 times faster at that temperature or in 28 seconds, and 14 seconds at 716°F, 7 seconds at 734°F, 3.5 seconds at 752°F, etc. This won't be exact do to inertia in grains and other factors, but you can see from the time frames that it is in the ballpark pretty well. Naturally, this estimate assumes the heat has penetrated the brass before the clock starts, but with brass thermal diffusivity at nearly 40 mm²/s, that will occur in under a second. For induction heating, the heat is generated internally and the surface is actually cooler than the inside, so this isn't a concern.
Hounddawg,
Regarding candle annealing, the standard tabletop candle flame is rather larger than that of a votive light candle or a birthday candle, so keep flame size in mind. Most IR thermometers have circular reading regions. They will not give an accurate reading of a case neck unless the black of the neck completely fills the circle. You will need a FLIR camera to get an accurate localized reading in an area smaller than the circle.
Just my opinion but I tend to think the opposite
I have prepared 50 to 100 brass identically. Then load 25 with a known good load that has a history of performing well at LR and will get consistently low velocity deviations with most single digits. Get another 25 from the bin and load 25 with the same bullet with a powder/load that gives fair results and will get mid teens or low 20's. It shoots great to 300 then the groups start spreading. Same brass from same lot number and prepped exactly the same. I have seen it happen more than once
I think of it as a layer cake with technique, equipment and the load as the layers. Annealing, primer seating depth, and neck work with all the other little tweaks are the icing and sprinkles. I'm starting to believe Litz is right on the annealing business, it may help with brass life but that is about it
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My initial goal when I start annealing was to prolong the life of my brass. My 6.8SPC brass would last between 2 to 4 re-loadings before the necks would split. Once fired 6.8 brass can be as expensive as 50 cents per case. New brass has been hit or miss and much more expensive until recently. I am annealing every other loading and I am up to 9 cycles with my 25 round test set without loosing a case.
The side effect I have noticed is my standard deviation and velocity spread has gotten smaller. I have more consistent ammo. My groupings have always been fairly tight but I am not having as many fliers.
I don't know if it is the annealing or my more detailed approach to case prep once I started annealing but I do know I am shooting better ammo. And I am not loosing cases to neck splitting. I am waiting to see how long it last before the primer pockets get loose.
The side effect I have noticed is my standard deviation and velocity spread has gotten smaller. I have more consistent ammo. My groupings have always been fairly tight but I am not having as many fliers.
I don't know if it is the annealing or my more detailed approach to case prep once I started annealing but I do know I am shooting better ammo. And I am not loosing cases to neck splitting. I am waiting to see how long it last before the primer pockets get loose.
Bill DeShivs
New member
A candle simply does not have enough heat to warm brass to annealing temperature. You would have to have an awfully long candle.
As far as "tempering" perhaps some research is in order. My reference to tempering has to do with steel, but it would apply to brass as well. Tempering is not hardening-it is removing hardness to whatever level you want. Annealing is taking a metal to it's softest state.
As far as "tempering" perhaps some research is in order. My reference to tempering has to do with steel, but it would apply to brass as well. Tempering is not hardening-it is removing hardness to whatever level you want. Annealing is taking a metal to it's softest state.
locknloader
New member
Is all this effort really worth the outcome? What's the major benefit of doing this seems like a huge waste of time.
A lot of people would call reloading a huge waste of time. Premium factory ammo like Federal Gold Medal Match .308's can be bought for about a dollar a round. Cheap 9mm and .45 are readily available these days for less than 20 cents a round and .223 plinkers for about a quarter
When you look at the several hundred to several thousands wrapped up equipment and the time you spend loading you are not saving much if any money
I reload because I enjoy it and know that the ammo I produce is the best quality that can be had. I can anneal 100 cases in less than 15 minutes so why not do it. It might not do that much but then again it might give me that 1 extra X
If you take it to its softest state is now in the plastic region and not elastic.
So while you can anneal to that point, for the purpose of this discussion and cartridges, the point is not to take it to its softest state.
Its also taking a specific part of the case to the right condition for longevity and performance.
You never ever never want to take the whole thing to that, the head is carefully set to a different condition that has to be harder to not blow up.
I am not one of those that reloads because I like it. I don't dislike it, but what I do like to do is shoot.
For me, annealing is an step, part of the process. If I do not anneal, in something around 5-8 reloads the necks split. Then I have to get replacement brass. As I shoot a lot, that is a constant money user that annealing stretches out.
I make it as efficient as possible jus like my case trimming with off the shoulder motorized trimmers.
In addition to that, as the cases get harder at the neck, the effort to seat the bullet goes up. It also gets more erratic, some very hard, some medium.
As neck tension has some affect on the accuracy (or consistency) and you may start distorting cases, the annealing take that back to an easy to seat round.
So for me its a form of economy and not having to put in orders for more brass.
Since I have started to anneal I have not had to replace a case due to neck issues.
How long that lasts ? I am up somewhere around cycle 3 on the cases. At some point they will need to be replaced. Reports of 20-25 reloading's before that happens.
I tend to shoot mid level loads so it may be longer.
For someone that invests in more expensive brass (Lapua/Norma) its a much larger return.
I tend to RP, but I do have back up Lapua if I do have to replace a whole batch, I can keep on shooting.
If you do not reload a lot, reload for hunting only, or just a bit of shooting, then its likely not going to be worth it. I plan on target shooting until I drop. So its an investment that will pay dividends on going over time.
I shoot 3 calibers, 3 guns for as accurate as I can get and military surplus guns.
The Mil Surplus 30-06 are throw away, its not accurate enough as I use FC/Winchester etc. range pickup.
My 7.5 Swiss brass is somewhat more costly and I want to keep that going as long as I can. No range pickup (or very little - I got 20 cases a while back)
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