Hand annealing brass
- Thread starter Yosemite Steve
- Start date
Don Fischer
New member
I tried it several time's over the years, still do know if I ever did it right though. I take a piece of brass I THINK is hard and heat it up so that I THINK it's softer. Then shot it and I can't tell if I accomplished anything or not? I generally get five at most rounds from a single case, seldom see a split neck. What happen's to my case's is the primer pocket's start getting loose, annealing won't fix that! Now I have a tool that refurbish's the pocket and am wondering again about the neck's. Wish there was a way to know that I had accomplished something. And there seem's to be different ways of doing it too, they all work?
I place my cases on a cookie tray in the oven at 450 deg. for 1 hour, then turn off the oven, crack open the oven door, and let them cool slowly inside the oven. I do this with new .348 Winchester cases before fire-forming them to .450 Alaskan, and I have never split a case in a hundred fire-forms. After fire-forming, I anneal them again the same way. Then after each case has been reloaded and fired 5 times I anneal them again. Some people think there is a problem with annealing the base of the case instead of just the neck, which might be true with very high pressure loads. I don't know. With my .450 Alaskan it has never been a problem. I shoot pretty hot loads but I'm guessing they are only running about 42,000 PSI.
Bill DeShivs
New member
At 450 degrees, you aren't doing anything to the case.
I'm not a reloader, but I work with a lot of metals-brass included.
I see a lot of incorrect information here.
Many of you seem to want to partially anneal (or temper) your brass. Why? It simply work-hardens sooner.
Full annealing occurs at red heat, and I would thin a full anneal would be what you are looking for. It's the way reloading has been done traditionally. Full annealing will NOT cause case necks to split prematurely.
I don't believe time at temperature makes any difference with brass. Once you reach your max temperature the heat treating is done-as long as the metal is heated thoroughly.
Quenching brass in water has no effect on hardness-it just cools it.
I'm not a reloader, but I work with a lot of metals-brass included.
I see a lot of incorrect information here.
Many of you seem to want to partially anneal (or temper) your brass. Why? It simply work-hardens sooner.
Full annealing occurs at red heat, and I would thin a full anneal would be what you are looking for. It's the way reloading has been done traditionally. Full annealing will NOT cause case necks to split prematurely.
I don't believe time at temperature makes any difference with brass. Once you reach your max temperature the heat treating is done-as long as the metal is heated thoroughly.
Quenching brass in water has no effect on hardness-it just cools it.
Yosemite Steve
New member
If that actually annealed at that temp you would ruin the case because most of the base should stay hardened.
I loaded my annealed cases up for my next trip out. The bullets seated like they were sinking into warm butter. I did not get more than a faint glow on them but I will say my confidence in the neck tension is low.
I'd be the first to admit I don't know anything about metallurgy. However, before I started using my "oven process", I used to loose about 1 in 6 cases due to splits and ruptures. Expanding from .348" to .458" in one blast is a large increase. Years ago when I complained to Winchester that their brand new cases were splitting when I fire-formed them, they told me that it was caused by hardening due to some kind of latent metallurgic process that occasionally would happen over time after manufacture that wasn't fully understood. They added that their cases weren't guaranteed for fire-forming, but sent me a free box of brass anyway. Like I said before, I've never had a split or rupture since I've been baking them in the oven, and that can't be just luck. I bought 400 .348 brass over 40 years ago at $5.75 a box, so it's the exact same cases that used to split, but don't anymore.
As Mr. Guffey's citation of the LA shooters suggests, heat travels. It always goes from a warmer area to a cooler one, losing temperature as it spreads. You can think of it as the temperature becoming diluted by the lower temperature in fresh material as it spreads. It doesn't have to spread far in most cases to drop below the annealing temperature.
For flame annealing, any visible red is too hot. The Draper point, at which a glow just barely becomes visible, is 977°F (525°C), so about 300F higher than is generally considered adequate for flame annealing. A true blackbody radiator theoretically just becoming visible at about 800°F (427°C), but cases are not true blackbodies (zero reflectivity), so the Draper point is probably a better guess. Hotter than necessary in either case.
Where this all gets sketchy is in timing. Brass crystal structure change takes time to change. At higher temperature, stress relief happens faster. At 570°F, brass is fully stress-relieved in an hour. At 700°F it's done in seconds. So if you get it red hot for just a fraction of a second, that should be OK, too, I just don't know what that fraction is. I do know that everyone I know who did flame annealing to a dull red glow in reduced lighting said they did it every three or four reloadings, otherwise splits would commence. Proper annealing should let you get the same 10 to 20 reloads that a new case fresh from the factory will usually give you if it isn't abused, so their brass was definitely weakened.
Stress relief (partial annealing) is all you need to eliminate work hardening caused by boundary dislocation so that it starts over. You will not fail to remove it completely if you don't anneal dead soft. Full annealing grows grain size and reduces tensile strength as the graph for a one-hour heat below shows, even if its time frame is different. Extra softening beyond the stress relief range just makes brass weaker. Brass hardness IS time and temperature dependent, as the fellows selling the AMP unit have proven by hardness testing and having to adjust their time and temperature controls to get the same hardness and every time.
For flame annealing, any visible red is too hot. The Draper point, at which a glow just barely becomes visible, is 977°F (525°C), so about 300F higher than is generally considered adequate for flame annealing. A true blackbody radiator theoretically just becoming visible at about 800°F (427°C), but cases are not true blackbodies (zero reflectivity), so the Draper point is probably a better guess. Hotter than necessary in either case.
Where this all gets sketchy is in timing. Brass crystal structure change takes time to change. At higher temperature, stress relief happens faster. At 570°F, brass is fully stress-relieved in an hour. At 700°F it's done in seconds. So if you get it red hot for just a fraction of a second, that should be OK, too, I just don't know what that fraction is. I do know that everyone I know who did flame annealing to a dull red glow in reduced lighting said they did it every three or four reloadings, otherwise splits would commence. Proper annealing should let you get the same 10 to 20 reloads that a new case fresh from the factory will usually give you if it isn't abused, so their brass was definitely weakened.
Stress relief (partial annealing) is all you need to eliminate work hardening caused by boundary dislocation so that it starts over. You will not fail to remove it completely if you don't anneal dead soft. Full annealing grows grain size and reduces tensile strength as the graph for a one-hour heat below shows, even if its time frame is different. Extra softening beyond the stress relief range just makes brass weaker. Brass hardness IS time and temperature dependent, as the fellows selling the AMP unit have proven by hardness testing and having to adjust their time and temperature controls to get the same hardness and every time.
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Yosemite Steve
New member
Should I go ahead and pulle the bullets and toss the brass then?
I experimented with different torches and in the end decided the inexpensive $9.95 plumbers torch to be the ideal for this process. Butane torches allow a bit more precision but do not have sufficient output to heat the brass properly. "Turbo" torches are like rosebuds, they heat a large area of the case very quickly and can overheat the the thinner brass of the neck. The pencil tip plumbers torch allows me to focus the heat just at the junction of neck and shoulder. I have found that this position heats the neck without overheating and the shoulder sufficiently. I have had it for almost a year now and I am happy with my results
I keep a small tub of trash brass next to my annealer and let the flame run for three or four minutes to stabilize as the metal of the torch heats up. I modded this machine with a digital PWM so I can set the timer so the case will be in the flame for the same amount time every batch
Here is a pic of it in operation with a test case
I keep a small tub of trash brass next to my annealer and let the flame run for three or four minutes to stabilize as the metal of the torch heats up. I modded this machine with a digital PWM so I can set the timer so the case will be in the flame for the same amount time every batch
Here is a pic of it in operation with a test case
Yosemite Steve
New member
I just read this from Rich DeSimone
Agreed and visually identifying adequate "glow" is subject to too many individual interpretations of color. Temp sticks are a consistent "go", "no go" type method of measuring heat at a precise location.RC20 said:
RC20 said:
If your advising me to increase my heating process from 650 to 700 degrees, keep in mind I use my 650 temp stick at the BASE OF THE SHOULDER, so in reality i'm probably already at 700 - 750F at the necks. I prefer doing it this way as I can err on the side of safe and not allowing too much heat transferring down into the body of the brass.
No really advising but should also be clear that I am taking temperatures at the neck, not the shoulder.
The shoulder is a bit cooler with the way I am setup.
That is subject to change dependence on how you have the case oriented in the coil on an induction annealer.
Other than con capt, it does not apply to how to go about ensuring hour quality is controlled with a torch type.
With good testing process, 700 degree with a torch would seem to be a good target.
My hesitation beyond that is the variation in torches, heat output, room temperature and Consistent hold and rotation of the torch setup. That was too much for my fussy mind to want to try to deal with.
Metal God has done what I consider the Poster Child of approach and diligence for torch setup, I don't have that dedication.
Quality control with testing, ensuring the variances are covered and a case does not go over (better under) and all that is quite the challenge.
ps: Howndawg also looks to have quite a good setup, I have not seen the full process the way Metal God laid it out.
If I had the Amp machine I would want try work with them to get a setting this is not perfect, but shy of perfect.
I don't like a process I can't see, test and confirm results though as Unclenick has noted, you should see evidence if to far and a bit short does not hurt.
The shoulder is a bit cooler with the way I am setup.
That is subject to change dependence on how you have the case oriented in the coil on an induction annealer.
Other than con capt, it does not apply to how to go about ensuring hour quality is controlled with a torch type.
With good testing process, 700 degree with a torch would seem to be a good target.
My hesitation beyond that is the variation in torches, heat output, room temperature and Consistent hold and rotation of the torch setup. That was too much for my fussy mind to want to try to deal with.
Metal God has done what I consider the Poster Child of approach and diligence for torch setup, I don't have that dedication.
Quality control with testing, ensuring the variances are covered and a case does not go over (better under) and all that is quite the challenge.
ps: Howndawg also looks to have quite a good setup, I have not seen the full process the way Metal God laid it out.
If I had the Amp machine I would want try work with them to get a setting this is not perfect, but shy of perfect.
I don't like a process I can't see, test and confirm results though as Unclenick has noted, you should see evidence if to far and a bit short does not hurt.
I would certainly never claim what I am doing is perfect by any means. If I ever win the lottery I will buy an AMP, to me that is the perfect machine for the job. Until that happens though my modded Anealeeze is getting the job done as far as case life and neck prep. I don't regret the money I spent on it. I now anneal after every firing it is so convenient. Does the annealing help? Now that is a subject we can debate all day long
And then there was this reloader that used a candle, I asked him why he started the video with his fingers visible and finish with no fingers in sight.
So I decided there were rules, I decided to make an annealer by applying the rules. But; at the time it seemed someone was trying to sell me something and then there is that large group that believes there is something wrong with everything and everybody.
F. Guffey
Each run through I learn a bit more, sometimes a lot.
Highly helpful in a very difficult to achieve quality control aspect.
Some things such as adherence to method transfers from any process of heat that is chosen.
Like digital scales, a lot of it is how it works for you. I love them, others like beams.
The goal is consistency and if the beam gets that for a person to their overall process satisfaction, that is what counts.
I want to process at a faster pace for all processes I can, but then for me, reloading is a process to get to shoot more, not as the object itself.
Highly helpful in a very difficult to achieve quality control aspect.
Some things such as adherence to method transfers from any process of heat that is chosen.
Like digital scales, a lot of it is how it works for you. I love them, others like beams.
The goal is consistency and if the beam gets that for a person to their overall process satisfaction, that is what counts.
I want to process at a faster pace for all processes I can, but then for me, reloading is a process to get to shoot more, not as the object itself.
So after reading all of your comments, I believe you are all correct in saying that my oven method is not hot enough to anneal brass. I did some more research on some machining forums, and I am now thinking that what I have actually been doing is stress relieving the brass, rather than annealing it. This might explain why my primer pockets stay tight and the case necks hold their tension, but yet the brass is malleable enough for fire-forming. What do you folks think of this explanation? Below is a photo of my fire-formed brass before I tried the oven method, which by the way I got the oven method out of some very old gun magazine publication. Now the brass fire-forms without splitting every time.
Yosemite Steve
New member
I don't know. This, like many other forum subjects, has many answers and most of them are different. Reputable sources even contradict each other. I will give my way a try. I will also give your way a try. Maybe it's different but if it works it works. Doing things the old way because that's how it was always done isn't very scientific. I'm exited to do some experimenting.