Had To Draw Down This Morning!

[cpaspr]

I guess I can't leave it alone either.

Cause I can see legitimate concerns for both sides of the fence.

Yes, CWO4USCGRET, whatever did happen to when neighbors and strangers helped each other? Well, for one thing, and I know I'm preaching to the choir here, over the last 20+ years enough people have had their keisters sued off way too many times for doing "the right thing" to make a lot of people gun shy (no pun intended).

What ifs, shouldas, wouldas and couldas. No one knows. That's the problem. What if WAs bigfoot sees the error of his ways after staring down the barrel of that Seecamp? What if he cleans up his act and becomes a model citizen; heck, what if he becomes a spokesperson for the local constabulary among what used to be his peer group about how being a BG can get you real dead real fast? We just don't know.

And those of us on this forum don't know if the local situation in Anchorage that Ken may have to face if he reports the incident could potentially risk his entire livelihood. If Anchorage has some overagressive DA and hotheaded cops who don't support RKBA, he could theoretically risk losing not only his CC permit, but his gun owning rights as well. Note his occupation. Gun Store Owner. That means he could potentially lose everything, if the political situation is bad enough.

It shouldn't be that way, but we all know that in some places it is. That's just it. We don't know. And sometimes the possible risks others might end up facing, like in your last posted example, just aren't worth what might be more certain personal consequences.

 

[azurefly]

What I hear you saying is by not calling the police, you condone the violent behavior, and even though you are a responsible, law abiding citizen, you'd rather let someone else potentially get harmed then make a phone call?

What ever happened; where I grew up neighbors (and even strangers) helped each other.

Wow. Where do you get off putting words in my mouth that I "condone the violent behavior," and would "rather let someone else potentially get harmed then [sic] make a phone call"?!

That's reckless and irresponsible of you, not to mention quite defamatory.

Like someone else here said, I carry a gun for PERSONAL PROTECTION, and it is not my responsibility to see to the safety of the general public. While I understand the concern that the guy may set off to hunt a less prickly victim, I would have to, like anyone else, weigh the potential for ME to get in trouble.

Let's change the situation a bit. You confront a similar vagrant in a place where you technically were not supposed to have your gun. Maybe you were picking up your girlfriend at a local university, or you had dropped into a local bar and grill kind of restaurant and had a burger and a coke (no alcohol), but the place is the kind that is circumscribed by the terms of your CCW license.

Now you call the police. They pick the guy up. He makes a counter-assertion that YOU pulled a gun on him. Naturally, the police ask you about this, and you have to decide on the spot to deny it (and to deny even having a gun on you) or not. If those cops decide to frisk you -- and they probably will, I imagine, since a criminal complaint is being made that you pulled a gun! -- they will find that you were carrying a gun on you in a prohibited place. Yay. Your altruism just lost you your CCW license.

I stand behind saying that personal protection is every individual's onus, and I will not be held responsible for the fact that the wildman's next victim was not adequately equipped or of the adequate mindset to defend him or herself.


But really, you ought to be more responsible than to post words into my mouth like you did.


-azurefly

 

[odessastraight]

Happy B-Day USCG

Well, just a very brief time out to wish the USCG a HAPPY BIRTHDAY. Long may your dedicated and outstanding service to the USA continue.

 

[CWO4USCGRET]

On behalf of

The men and women, present and past including the reserve and auxilliary and their families, thanks for the birthday wish to the Coast Guard. 216 years old; the oldest sea going military service of the US.

 

[CWO4USCGRET]

Up till now

I haven't taken any comments personal. That's the purpose of a discussion board - so people can discuss things rationally. Of course sometimes when someone says something and another person doesn't like it then the fur begins to fly....

Azurefly says:

Wow. Where do you get off putting words in my mouth that I "condone the violent behavior," and would "rather let someone else potentially get harmed then [sic] make a phone call"?!

That's reckless and irresponsible of you, not to mention quite defamatory.

CWO4USCGRET says wow, first I am "Killer" now I am "Defamer." Harsh words; for expressing an opinion on the subject of calling a police officer or not. Libel, is the written form; and defined by Merriam-Webster as such:

Main Entry: 1li·bel
Pronunciation: 'lI-b&l
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, written declaration, from Anglo-French, from Latin libellus, diminutive of liber book
1 a : a written statement in which a plaintiff in certain courts sets forth the cause of action or the relief sought b archaic : a handbill especially attacking or defaming someone
2 a : a written or oral defamatory statement or representation that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression b (1) : a statement or representation published without just cause and tending to expose another to public contempt (2) : defamation of a person by written or representational means (3) : the publication of blasphemous, treasonable, seditious, or obscene writings or pictures (4) : the act, tort, or crime of publishing such a libel

.

Although I am not an attorney, an opinion, based on the comments made by someone, about those comments isn't libel, slander, nor defamatory. Unless I am mistaken Azurefly, your comments on this forum indicate support to not call the police in this situation - for fear of as you put it:

I want to offer to CW04 that a large part of the ambivalence that many of us civvies would have about calling the police is the crapshoot we engage in regarding whether we end up with a cop who is prosecutorially hostile to our right to carry guns, and use them for personal defense.

and then this comment too:

Once again, what every citizen should do cannot be addressed by simply acceding to what you think they ought to do a la being so altruistic about the safety of hypothetical future victims of "Bigfoot" who may or may not even come to exist, that they expose themselves to what they perceive to be the potential for persecution and malicious prosecution by local law enforcement.

, and finally this one:

Holy Moly -- you live in Massachusetts and you still believe it is your civic duty to put yourself and your freedom on the line knowing that the overwhelming civil authority in MA is steadfastly hostile to your right to KABA?! Talk about misplaced loyalty! You might as well tell me that I should return the dropped wallet to a guy who just robbed me, after it fell out of his pocket while he beat me!

There is such a stark disconnect between your first sentence and the rest of what you said in your post. I can barely believe that after noting all of that, you still feel that a person has an obligation to call the authorities -- when they're the same authorities that don't give YOU the benefit of any doubt when it comes to having or using a gun!

Azurefly, based on the general tenor of you comments I have quoted I surmised that you would be reluctant to call the police to report the confrontation that occurred. Not a what if or suppose that; but what WildAlaska reported. From what I read you would be more concerned about the attitude of a police officer toward you carrying a concealed weapon then the fact that someone who actually exhibited aggressive, threatening behavior going away and possibly harming someone else. Correct me if I am wrong, but that's my opinion, based on what you have written. It is neither, libelous, slanderous, nor defamatory; it is mearly an interpretation of what has already been spoken.

We could play the "what if scenario game" all night; probably figure out solutions to all of them too...I won't though; I have commented on an actual situation, suggested that the police should be called to report the aggressor, and given my logic and reasoning for it.

If a person acts in accordance with the laws of their realm (in this case, Alaska), which according to packing.orgs link, you don't even need a permit (unless the law has changed) to carry concealed and the use of deadly force (even displaying it is using it) in this case was justified (which in my opinion I would have acted the same way) then I sure wouldn't be worried about what the police would do to me...

I can guarantee you, with no uncertainty, that even if you follow the letter of the law to the [bold]T[/bold] and shoot someone, you will be taken into custody, questioned, and unless the shooting was totally bogus, released while it is investigated. You may or may not be charged with and including, murder depending on the circumstances and the bad guy (or his family) will probably file a wrongful death or injury civil suit against you. That's even if you are totally justified. What will more than likely happen is the prosecutor will investigate and say no charges, it was justifiable. If I shoot someone at work, I know I will be at home, awaiting the investigation, and since I work for the government, the civil lawsuit. Its the part of the risk associated with carrying a gun.

 

[General P.]

How can we in this country be so brazen to fight for and hope to instill freedom elsewhere when we ourselves must resort to argument whether we could defend ourselves against such offensive action as described? Maybe instead of exporting freedom to other countries we should send them our judges and lawyers .
If this guy as described put a hairy paw on me, I would surely shoot him, and again and again...because he kept getting up and after me. I would not sit opposite from him in court, his family maybe but not him, and watch him grin as I get the old shaft. But thankfully I live in a state where I think I would get a fair trial. See... now why would the assailed be concerned with gettng a trial at all.
Good job Alaska. Hope you don't have any more like it.

 

[Holman]

Wildalaska first let me say that I am glad you are ok, second you did not have to take the next step to defend yourself. The most important thing here is that you live to see another day on top of the dirt. You handled the situation perfectly.

 

[azredhawk44]

WildAlaska:

Glad you're alright. This board wouldn't be nearly the same without you. Stay safe up there!

AZRedhawkalsoputtingsillyphrasesinhisnameintributetowildalaska'scourageandwisdominthefaceofdanger44

 

[revjen45]

When I got fined for getting run over by a truck on a dark street with no crosswalk I lost any iota of trust I might have had for the law. Turned out that the law was so obscure that the lawyer I called had to look it up and get back to me. If I need lawyer to cross the street don't expect me to call the police, admit to pulling a gun, and expect anything resembling justice or common sense. I have no obligation to place my own liberty at risk and give my life savings to the legal industry to report the creep to the police so they can harrass him and maybe arrest me. If this sounds cynical that's OK. I don't trust the law or its minions and will avoid contact with them if possible. I don't need or trust the police. I have a 9mm that I do trust and that won't screw me with some obscure piece of arcane malice.

 

[azurefly]

I hear ya, revjen. Your stated experience (and you didn't even pull a GUN!) is the kind of experience I have read about and vowed to myself to try to avoid having to go through personally. How often is it that a person can learn a lesson from someone else's experience without having to go through that kind of crap himself? When we can take someone else's word for something like this we can relieve ourselves of the pain of getting a first-hand experience.

In other words, I am convinced of the dangers of calling the police (in some situations akin to this one) and I am fortunate that I didn't have to learn the HARD way. Instead, I have READ of OTHERS' experiences and learned what to avoid.


Now, as far as CW04, sir, I didn't say you LIBELED me, so I don't know why you went off on a dictionary-definition tangent. I said that your comments were defamatory. And something need not be legally actionable in order to be defamatory.

Defame: to attack or injure the reputation or honor of by false and malicious statements.

I would infer and argue that attempts to do the same fall under the definition.

You had no reason to state that I condone violent behavior, or would rather let someone else potentially get harmed then make a phone call. You made a real reach with those statements.

I'm not standing here hollering, "Oh, I'm gonna call a lawyer! Bad man! BAD!" But I think you ought to acknowledge the base attempt to put words in my mouth just because I don't agree with your views on the subject.


-azurefly

 

[CWO4USCGRET]

You can

Infer all you want. You certainly seem to think that your answer is the only answer. If you want to make this personal don't worry, despite the numerous opportunities you have left yourself open for attack, I won't play your silly game; and that is what it is - a silly game.

I only hope that someday you may realize that calling the police to report the erratic, violent behavior of someone is the right thing to do; what would do if you were the victim of the assault after he had been chased off by someone else?

 

[IZHUMINTER]

Pot, this is Kettle: You're black. Over.

CWO:

You certainly seem to think that your answer is the only answer.

I only hope that someday you may realize that calling the police to report the erratic, violent behavior of someone is the right thing to do;

Sir, it is you who appears to be advocating that yours is the only answer. Several folks have attempted to explain that they might not be able to inform the police of such behavior (in sufficient detail for the police to take it seriously) without themselves being deprived of their rights and liberties...and with no guarantee that the police would, in fact, do anything about the potential menace.

Saint Augustine said the pacifism is a mortal sin, as in choosing not to defend your life you are in essence committing suicide. If by informing the police of someone else's odd behavior (not dangerous behavior...not criminal behavior) could cause me to lose the tools I use to defend myself (and my family), then my moral choice is clear. I fully understand that someone else, faced with the same choice, might choose differently. I ask you to understand that as well.

 

[Lancel]

We seem to have left Wild Alaska's encounter and entered a Legal & Political discussion, so...

If the police will cause me grief and heartache if I defend myself by drawing but not firing.---What will they do to me if I draw and fire?

Maybe someone with those fears and worries shouldn't carry at all; the burden of consequences seems far too heavy.

 

[CWO4USCGRET]

Izhuminter...

I considered that, quite a bit when I wrote my responses. A few people have expressed the sentiment that they wouldn't or advised others not to call the police. Several times I have said in my responses that if you are worried about the conseqences of calling the police, then don't tell everything...I suggested that you might even say you saw the confrontation, wanted to report the dangerous behavior, but want to be anonymous about it. What is missing, in my opinion, is people not willing to help other people by doing a civic duty.

That isn't just my opinion; many people would call. I hope if you are backed into a corner and can't defend yourself for some reason, that someone will call 911 for you.

 

[azurefly]

You certainly seem to think that your answer is the only answer...

Even though I said:

I would leave it up to the individual, in his individual circumstances, to have an understanding of whether he is likely to get praise or trouble from the police for having scared a criminal off by using a concealed carry handgun.

and this:

There is no one-size-fits-all answer to the question, "Should WA have called the police," some members' insistence to the contrary notwithstanding.

aaaand this:

Hey, man, I'm not making the decision for you -- don't try to make it for me.

???


-azuresohowopendidireallyleavemyselfanywayfly

 

[azurefly]

Several times I have said in my responses that if you are worried about the conseqences of calling the police, then don't tell everything...

And then I pointed out that the police usually get to the bottom of the story eventually, and when they figure out that you had selectively omitted stuff, they're not likely to view you as a very reliable, honest guy.

We have cops here, right? What do they say about that?


-azurefly

 

[CWO4USCGRET]

This one says

call 911. If you haven't broken the law you don't have a damn thing to worry about...Tell the truth.

 

[azurefly]

Just moments ago you advocated telling an edited truth, though.

Is that the kind of "truth" you, as a cop, want to be told?

What if YOU got told by a guy that someone had accosted him in a threatening manner, and he just wanted the cops to check the guy out, and then later on as the story unfolded he ended up having to admit to you, "Uh, yeah, and I also, er, um, drew a loaded handgun and pointed it at his face. I must have, um, forgotten to tell you all that"?

You wouldn't start to have reservations about giving credence to further stuff that such a guy might tell you?

Remember, YOU are the one who told us we need not tell the cops we call that a gun was involved at all...

call 911. If you haven't broken the law you don't have a damn thing to worry about...Tell the truth.

Once again, not everyone who hasn't broken the law has nothing to worry about after telling the cops he defended himself with a gun and pointed it at someone's face.


-azurefly

 

[Lancel]

when they figure out that you had selectively omitted stuff, they're not likely to view you as a very reliable, honest guy.

Examples of how to use common sense when dealing with authority figures:

LEO: Why did the gorilla stop?
Me: (courteously) 'Cause I yelled at him and showed I could fight back.

(An honest but not detailed statement)

LEO: How did you do that?

Me: I don't want to get into all that; I just wanted you to know in case you wanted to keep this guy from hurting himself or others.

OR

Me: I'd prefer not to say, I'm just telling you to be aware of this guy.

OR

Me: Neither one of us was injured. But he could be dangerous. Thought you should know.
..........
The first two answers honestly acknowledge that I have more details.
The last example reframes the question to more important elements since I've already stated that "I showed I could fight back."

Nothing in the above would count against me as a "reliable, honest guy." I'm even honest that I'm holding back.

But most of all if I was really concerned, I'd just do it all anonymously.

Larry

 

[Lancel]

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

attributed to Edmund Burke