Had Swat Called On Me Today...

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My range is in a state park. We'll have to see what happens in the future. From what I understand, its been there a very long time.
 
The issue that bothers me the most is the serial numbers without a warrant. I probably would have done the same thing letting them come in and look because you don't have anything to hide, but I wouldn't let them write down serial numbers.
 
They would run the make/mod/serial numbers, so see if any came back stolen.

I would consult an attorney, as to your rights, exactly, on your posted land.

Such as "Gentlemen you are on private property, I own it, leave, you are trespassing, armed trespass" Speed dial to your Lawyer.

I would think $300,000.00 out of Court settlement would build some nice wee goodies on your range.

Come on down to Florida!! Best advice.
 
You can thank Big Sis and her "If you see something, say something" campaign. All of a sudden everyone thinks every single thing they aren't expecting is a terrorist threat.

OP -- you were detained and searched without a warrant. I believe a formal complaint is in order.
 
I didn't get it from your post, had you done any shooting before the cops showed up? Sounds like you hadn't, you were loading mags, getting ready to shoot, is that right?

If that's correct, and they told you they had a report of automatic weapons fire, when you had not even fired anything, then, either they lied to you (the horror!!!:eek::rolleyes:)

OR
Someone filed a false police report, and that is a crime, in every jurisdiction I am aware of. Rather than go after the police, who are nice guys, right?, set them after whoever filed the false report. YOU may never find out who filed the report, but odds are they can.

Contact a lawyer, you might have been the victim of someone trying to assault you by cop!

Generally cops don't like things like that, because...
it wastes their time
It diverts valuable resources
it creates tension between the actual victim and the police, and could potentially lead to a serious, even lethal confrontation...and...
It sometimes makes the police look like idiots. The really don't like that...

Also, it lays the groundwork for them to be able to either disregard, or respond in a reasonable manner if/when they get other reports from that source, or about the same general thing.

Let my give you a non gun related example...
We had a foundered horse. TO save the horse's life (and on vet's orders), he was put in a small pen, and his feed was very closely controlled. If you know horses, you know why. But the pen could be seen from the road. In a month and a half, we met every deputy sherrif in the area, as they visited us to check out a "complaint" that we were starving our horse. Some "concerned citizen" drove by (apparently regularly) and since they didn't see any hay bales in the pen, they knew we must be starving the poor horse. Complaint made (and remade regularly it appears), deputy HAS to check it out. After the first three, the word had gotten around in the dept, and the last two or three times, they just stopped in to say "Hi, we got another report..." Never did get them to tell us who was complaining, but they did eventually let us know that, that person was no longer being listened to, and they were considering criminal charges for filing false reports...

Your situation is a lot more DANGEROUS. IF the caller had told the cops you were threatening them/ shooting at them (or any of a dozen other lies) not only would guns be drawn, you might get shot because you sneezed, or didn't move FAST enough to comply with a command....and based on the information that they had at the time, the cops would not be considered entirely in the wrong.

Course, you're still shot, or worse, shot dead.

Seriously, get a lawyer, and find what you can to do find out if the "report" was just the cop's BS excuse, or if it was someone deliberately trying to screw with you, or worse, get you killed from some cop's (justifiable?) reaction. The way things are today, its not just a joke!
 
My first demand as landowner would have been "Show me your warrant"...
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The supreme court has ruled that there is no privacy interest in an open field. Any evidence obtained in an open field on private property that is *NOT POSTED* is admissible in court. If the property is posted, then they (LEOs) would probably want to get a search warrant so that they are not breaking a criminal law (trespassing) themselves. Some jurisdictions may even uphold a warrantless search of a posted open field. That may depend on where you're at... which leads to this:

Such as "Gentlemen you are on private property, I own it, leave, you are trespassing, armed trespass" Speed dial to your Lawyer.
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This should be respected, but there are exceptions to the warrant requirement in the fourth amendment. If there is an exigent circumstance (emergency), then LEOs are not required to have a warrant to enter a property. An example of exigent circumstance is receiving a 911 call that there is a domestic argument and the man is swinging a baseball bat (common sense). One could argue that a report of automatic gunfire could be an exigent circumstance. This would be situation dependent... ie time of day, location (urban or rural), high crime area or no... alot of things. In Cali, a report of automatic gunfire would probably be interpreted as exigent circumstance most anywhere.

The issue that bothers me the most is the serial numbers without a warrant.
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And here we have a winner. The police pretty much had a right to investigate the matter. Once they confirmed that you were on the property lawfully and were not shooting "automatic" weapons causing all forms of carnage, then you could have ended the encounter. It would lawful for an officer to glance at the firearms as they are in plain view while they are there under the "exigent circumstance." In this case, once they confirmed you were the property owner target practicing then they didn't have a reason to be there if you demanded that they leave. If he saw an obvious illegal modification while he was there, without having to manipulate the weapon, then he could sieze the weapon and charge you. If he didn't see an obvious illegal modification (or any other violation of the law), then you could refuse to allow him to touch your weapons. IT STILL WOULD NOT BE ILLEGAL FOR HIM TO COPY A SERIAL NUMBER DOWN IF IT IS IN PLAIN VIEW WITHOUT HIM TOUCHING THE WEAPON, EVEN WITHOUT YOUR CONSENT. Picking up the weapon without your consent is different. If they started copying down the serial numbers, I would very politely insist that they leave my property and come back with a search warrant (which they won't even apply for because they couldn't get it).





The takeaway here is these guys could still use some common sense. I understand some guys that aren't gun enthusiasts may be on edge, but still. Had I responded, I would've done the standard one car pulling up and confirming that you have a right to be on the property. I would file a complaint at the police department. Be coherent and polite... that goes a long ways in actually changing stupid behavior. Most complaints that a cop gets is from someone whom they've arrested for dope 5 times. Needless to say, those complaints usually make no sense. Getting a sensible "you guys could have treated me a little better" guidance from an intelligent (non career criminal) person might make some headway. I would not threaten to lawyer up right away if I were you. While I think their actions were not prudent, I don't see any actions taken that would be construed as out of place given the current mood of the Nation and in California. It saddens me to say that, but I'm somewhat familiar with the process (though not in Cali) and I'm nearly 100% sure that a lawsuit against the department would go nowhere at this point.
 
To the OP. I think I would have handled it exactly as you did. Im in NJ also and I have heard of people being arrested for less than what you are doing. Most LEO's that I know defend the 2nd the same as those on hear, they are just doing what they are told. The only thing about that experience that really bothered me is the fact that they had guns pointed on you. Its a very unnerving experience to look down the barrel of loaded gun. At the same time they had probable cause to enter your property when they had a report of gun fire. You could have been jacking deer or murdering your wife for all they know.
 
It will be wrote off as "acting in good faith" when L.E. does something questionable. The serial numbers and probably you guys too were run through NCIC for warrants or hits on the guns. Here's the scary part, what if one day the county , state or federal governments initiate some sort of program or order that is clearly a rights violation. How many officers will obey an illegal order because they can blame someone else and/or they enjoy the opportunity to do whatever it is they are about to do. Scary thought thinking you could get arrested or killed and be the one in the right because others lack ethics.
 
Many years ago I had a visit from an officer while I was shooting. I too was on my property, was clearly shooting in to a safe backstop, and had everything laid out where it could be seen. But it wasn't right after an intensely covered mass shooting, and the officer didn't pull a gun on me. Turns out a neighbor had called and said somebody was shooting at or toward their house. It was obviously not true, and that was that.

Whatever or whoever started your chain of events was probably similar, in that while the complaint was technically "false", it was closer to a misunderstanding and nothing will come of it.
 
When terrible events like Newtown occur, the first thing that disappears is the law ... I'm with Crankgrinder; we're going to see laws ignored in the name of protecting innocent lives ... when the officer said he didn't want to hear about private property, that should be the first clue ... tragedy seems to open the door to demands for new laws and a growing trend to ignoring those already on the books -- like private property rights ... taking down the serial numbers was totally inappropriate in this case, as was the excessive number of officers -- and a prosecutor!!! -- sent to investigate your apparent plans to launch WW3 ... I don't know how your case, and the larger issue of a national response, but I have a bad feeling that we've reached a tipping point and we're not going to like how the government responds ...
 
Salmon said:
My first demand as landowner would have been "Show me your warrant"...

No warrant?...At that moment all conversation and cooperation would have ceased other than "I consent to no searches, I want you off my property immediately, and I wish to talk to my attorney now"...

They are on your posted land illegally with no probable cause...

And it sounds like they knew it...

All just my not so humble opinion, of course...
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I agree. It was total BS what they did. I'd hold them responsible for it. If they start hassling you, bump it up to county or state level.
 
If you file a complaint, for their wrongful and dangerous actions! Then they continue to harass you have real good case.
What they did was wrong and unreasonable.
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This is true, but I have friends and family of friends on the force here so unless this happens again I'm going to let it go with a stern talking to the chief of police today about the actions of his men.

My first demand as landowner would have been "Show me your warrant"...

No warrant?...At that moment all conversation and cooperation would have ceased other than "I consent to no searches, I want you off my property immediately, and I wish to talk to my attorney now"...

They are on your posted land illegally with no probable cause...

And it sounds like they knew it...

All just my not so humble opinion, of course...
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I agree, however staring down the barrel of a loaded m4 and several glock 21's has a way of making you keep your moth shut :o I wish I had resisted more but really I don't want to end up dead and I'm just glad I didn't.

Yep, get a hungry mean lawyer. File formal complaints
against each one and the department. Seek damages
and see what kind of settlement you can get. The only
way to stop this kind of mis use of power is to make it
very expensive for them to continue.
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While I see where you're coming from and I is honestly probably the "smart" thinbg to do I'm not interested in making money off this sort of thing... I also would rather the officers not get in trouble but perhaps go above them and have their tactics changed to a more lawful approach for future encounters of this kind...dealing with me or someone else.

Also, this like ive said many times is a small time...taking money from the police/county is as well as taking money out of my neghibors pockets. At least thats kind how I see it

You MUST live in a small town. One in which the prosecutor must be very bored to show up at a complaint such as that.
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Seasonal tourist town... winter population is probably 1/10th of that in summer or less. Everybody knows everybody kind of place. and I like that abou it..most of the time.
 
I would not have let them take the serial numbers down. Since it was your property I would have told them to hit the road unless they had a warrant. Following that I would go to the station and file a complaint how officers came onto your property with their guns drawn on you based on a call from who knows who.
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I wish I would of, but like I said before having several loaded guns on you a minute before kind of makes you keep your mouth shut about what they are doing...even though it was wrong for to not speak up

I have a really bad feeling things like this are going to happen more and more, and without reprecussion unless you are rather wealthy.
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Trampling on peoples rights is nothing new in NJ..its been happening for so long people think its normal here...its actually very sad.

I agree if LEOS come onto my property, I am not holding a gun and they draw on me when they leave will not be the end of this. That prosecutor sounds like he was looking for ANYTHING to stick you wish, but he didn't find squat. I would file a complaint and consult a local attorney. This type of stuff shouldn't be happening in America.

NJ and what america is supposed to be like are very different..im sorry to say

Heck dude you are in NJ; you are lucky they didn't cut you down, plant illegal guns on you and make up some stuff about how you "challenged them".

It is very important to protect yourself legally speaking, I suggest you install security cameras around your range to document any future encounters. Before doing that though ask that same attorney about recording laws in NJ.

Oh and lastly...if you have a dog maybe chain him up when you go shooting; just google "SWAT shoots dog" and you will see why I am saying this.

Its sad this is what America is coming to but if you value your safety and freedom it is best to take steps now.
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Security cams would be impossible becuase the nearest power is very very far away.... I was thinking about trail cams but I'm sure i'll end up with 100 pictures of squirells and probbaly nothing else.

Them writing the serial numbers down bothers me almost as ugh as you saying they drew their firearms on you, on your private property. This is the EXACT reason we as Americans cannot be unarmed. We have lost a lot of our rights (Patriot Act and other ways), I have seen too many times when police and other law enforcement agencies(disarming homeowners during hurricane Katrina) have overstepped their boundaries. Just my $0.02.
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The issue that bothers me the most is the serial numbers without a warrant. I probably would have done the same thing letting them come in and look because you don't have anything to hide, but I wouldn't let them write down serial numbers.
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Yes the serial numbers bit is very concerning for me... I'm going to ask that that information be desroyed when i speak with the chief of police.

From the way you worded your story, they were there before you and set up waiting for you???

BTW, I am also in NJ and 609
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No, they arrived after I had been shooting for 20-30 minutes.

I'm in the cape may area:)

They would run the make/mod/serial numbers, so see if any came back stolen.

I would consult an attorney, as to your rights, exactly, on your posted land.

Such as "Gentlemen you are on private property, I own it, leave, you are trespassing, armed trespass" Speed dial to your Lawyer.

I would think $300,000.00 out of Court settlement would build some nice wee goodies on your range.

Come on down to Florida!! Best advice.
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It's hard to tell people to beat it when they're got loaded guns pointed at yout back... but I do understand that its what I should of done...honestly I was a bit in shock at the whole situation...couldn't believe it was happening.

I would love to leave NJ,...but with family and a business its just not in the cards...plus I love where I live. I hate the rest of the state but I love it down here.
 
I didn't get it from your post, had you done any shooting before the cops showed up? Sounds like you hadn't, you were loading mags, getting ready to shoot, is that right?

No sir, we had been shooting for 20-30 minutes before they arrived

If that's correct, and they told you they had a report of automatic weapons fire, when you had not even fired anything, then, either they lied to you (the horror!!!)

OR
Someone filed a false police report, and that is a crime, in every jurisdiction I am aware of. Rather than go after the police, who are nice guys, right?, set them after whoever filed the false report. YOU may never find out who filed the report, but odds are they can.

Contact a lawyer, you might have been the victim of someone trying to assault you by cop!

Generally cops don't like things like that, because...
it wastes their time
It diverts valuable resources
it creates tension between the actual victim and the police, and could potentially lead to a serious, even lethal confrontation...and...
It sometimes makes the police look like idiots. The really don't like that...

Also, it lays the groundwork for them to be able to either disregard, or respond in a reasonable manner if/when they get other reports from that source, or about the same general thing.

Let my give you a non gun related example...
We had a foundered horse. TO save the horse's life (and on vet's orders), he was put in a small pen, and his feed was very closely controlled. If you know horses, you know why. But the pen could be seen from the road. In a month and a half, we met every deputy sherrif in the area, as they visited us to check out a "complaint" that we were starving our horse. Some "concerned citizen" drove by (apparently regularly) and since they didn't see any hay bales in the pen, they knew we must be starving the poor horse. Complaint made (and remade regularly it appears), deputy HAS to check it out. After the first three, the word had gotten around in the dept, and the last two or three times, they just stopped in to say "Hi, we got another report..." Never did get them to tell us who was complaining, but they did eventually let us know that, that person was no longer being listened to, and they were considering criminal charges for filing false reports...

Your situation is a lot more DANGEROUS. IF the caller had told the cops you were threatening them/ shooting at them (or any of a dozen other lies) not only would guns be drawn, you might get shot because you sneezed, or didn't move FAST enough to comply with a command....and based on the information that they had at the time, the cops would not be considered entirely in the wrong.

Course, you're still shot, or worse, shot dead.

Seriously, get a lawyer, and find what you can to do find out if the "report" was just the cop's BS excuse, or if it was someone deliberately trying to screw with you, or worse, get you killed from some cop's (justifiable?) reaction. The way things are today, its not just a joke
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I'm definitely considering speaking with my lawyer..but this time of year funds are tight so if i can avoid the money for a consultation I would like it..:o

Quote:
My first demand as landowner would have been "Show me your warrant"...

The supreme court has ruled that there is no privacy interest in an open field. Any evidence obtained in an open field on private property that is *NOT POSTED* is admissible in court. If the property is posted, then they (LEOs) would probably want to get a search warrant so that they are not breaking a criminal law (trespassing) themselves. Some jurisdictions may even uphold a warrantless search of a posted open field. That may depend on where you're at... which leads to this:


Its a heavily wooded piece of property other then the 50 yard clearign and dirt birm I use for a range. The land is very clearly posted

Quote:
Such as "Gentlemen you are on private property, I own it, leave, you are trespassing, armed trespass" Speed dial to your Lawyer.

This should be respected, but there are exceptions to the warrant requirement in the fourth amendment. If there is an exigent circumstance (emergency), then LEOs are not required to have a warrant to enter a property. An example of exigent circumstance is receiving a 911 call that there is a domestic argument and the man is swinging a baseball bat (common sense). One could argue that a report of automatic gunfire could be an exigent circumstance. This would be situation dependent... ie time of day, location (urban or rural), high crime area or no... alot of things. In Cali, a report of automatic gunfire would probably be interpreted as exigent circumstance most anywhere.

NJ as well...as we are just as ass backwards as cali


Quote:
The issue that bothers me the most is the serial numbers without a warrant.

And here we have a winner. The police pretty much had a right to investigate the matter. Once they confirmed that you were on the property lawfully and were not shooting "automatic" weapons causing all forms of carnage, then you could have ended the encounter. It would lawful for an officer to glance at the firearms as they are in plain view while they are there under the "exigent circumstance." In this case, once they confirmed you were the property owner target practicing then they didn't have a reason to be there if you demanded that they leave. If he saw an obvious illegal modification while he was there, without having to manipulate the weapon, then he could sieze the weapon and charge you. If he didn't see an obvious illegal modification (or any other violation of the law), then you could refuse to allow him to touch your weapons. IT STILL WOULD NOT BE ILLEGAL FOR HIM TO COPY A SERIAL NUMBER DOWN IF IT IS IN PLAIN VIEW WITHOUT HIM TOUCHING THE WEAPON, EVEN WITHOUT YOUR CONSENT. Picking up the weapon without your consent is different. If they started copying down the serial numbers, I would very politely insist that they leave my property and come back with a search warrant (which they won't even apply for because they couldn't get it).

I should of told them to stop and ask them to leave....hindsight is 20/20 i suppose. however i still didn't give them permission to take the serials down.



The takeaway here is these guys could still use some common sense. I understand some guys that aren't gun enthusiasts may be on edge, but still. Had I responded, I would've done the standard one car pulling up and confirming that you have a right to be on the property. I would file a complaint at the police department. Be coherent and polite... that goes a long ways in actually changing stupid behavior. Most complaints that a cop gets is from someone whom they've arrested for dope 5 times. Needless to say, those complaints usually make no sense. Getting a sensible "you guys could have treated me a little better" guidance from an intelligent (non career criminal) person might make some headway. I would not threaten to lawyer up right away if I were you. While I think their actions were not prudent, I don't see any actions taken that would be construed as out of place given the current mood of the Nation and in California. It saddens me to say that, but I'm somewhat familiar with the process (though not in Cali) and I'm nearly 100% sure that a lawsuit against the department would go nowhere at this point.
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I don't intend to sue so I'm not worried about that...but I do want the info they got from my guns destroyed..

To the OP. I think I would have handled it exactly as you did. Im in NJ also and I have heard of people being arrested for less than what you are doing. Most LEO's that I know defend the 2nd the same as those on hear, they are just doing what they are told. The only thing about that experience that really bothered me is the fact that they had guns pointed on you. Its a very unnerving experience to look down the barrel of loaded gun. At the same time they had probable cause to enter your property when they had a report of gun fire. You could have been jacking deer or murdering your wife for all they know.
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Pople other then us good folk here in the freedom blackhole on NJ will definitely NEVER understand what its like to be a firearms enthuiest here. I wish I would of handled the situation more firmly however whats done is done:(

Many years ago I had a visit from an officer while I was shooting. I too was on my property, was clearly shooting in to a safe backstop, and had everything laid out where it could be seen. But it wasn't right after an intensely covered mass shooting, and the officer didn't pull a gun on me. Turns out a neighbor had called and said somebody was shooting at or toward their house. It was obviously not true, and that was that.

Whatever or whoever started your chain of events was probably similar, in that while the complaint was technically "false", it was closer to a misunderstanding and nothing will come of it.
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Very similar think happpened to me a couple years ago...cop came out checked credentials, complimented me on my model 37 and then leave lol... I was expecting the same today when I first saw officers...didn't happen that way though:o
 
Also, I forgot to mention...

While they were questioning my friend and I behind my truck other officer searched the truck without every saying a word about it. They didn't go through the console and the glovebox other then to just peek in but they still did it.

My friends fiancee had been sitting in the truck the whole time (shes not a gun person so she just watched us... she also just had knee surgery and couldn't walk. They made her place her hands up on the dash for some time while they were looking though the truck and questioning us
 
I hope they don't drag their feet on you too bad grizz. One good thing I will say about my PD is they're pretty prompt with FID/permits..usually 4-5 weeks.

Of course most people in the real america would consider 4-5 weeks to buy a gun an atrocity...but here its considered pretty fast.
 
I just recieved this quote from an NJ LEO on my thread in the NJ forum... it was agreed with by another LEO on the foum..

what do you guys think about it?

Police have every right to go on private property in the situation you describe to investigate a complaint. Google curtilage and open fields for SCOTUS decisions. Yes the cop was right in saying not to give him any private property stuff.

You should be glad local LE can get a SWAT response together so quickly. If you were a cop answering a call about FA weapons fire would you be comfortable with just your handgun? I think some agencies over use SWAT to justify their existence I don't think this is one of those situations.

Holding a gun on someone who still may be armed seems reasonable. As a LEO and in the military I have had friendllies hold guns on me until they ascertained who I was. Searching you to determine if you were still armed seems reasonable also. Examining the guns to see if they were FA is something they were entitled to do also. All the guns you listed could be converted to FA. I would have done function checks to determine this. If you are entitled to handling the gun you are entitled to see the serial number.

How do you know the one guy was the prosecutor? It said so on his raid jacket? I think you got a detective from the county prosecutor's office who happened to be in the area and backed these guys up.

You said their demeanor did a 180 when they determined who you were.

There isn't anything related showing the police did anything wrong.

If you want to contact the chief and relate what happened by all means do so. I would also ask him if in order to prevent it happening again suggest that perhaps you call the desk when you decide to shoot there. Not asking permission just letting them know to avoid confrontations. This is what we do at a friends place in NH.
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