Had a kind of Kaboom today

FlySubCompact said:
I had a pistol malfunction today. New gun. It's a Smith and Wesson MP Bodyguard 380. Ammo was factory from Summit Ammo.
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There is a thread over at Ohioans For Concealed Carry that has the exact same scenario: S&W Bodyguard .380 and Summit Ammo. This gun blew up TWO guns. (Seriously, KABOOM'd the first gun so continued with the same ammo in the second gun and KABOOMed it as well.

Thread here: http://www.ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83221

Kosh75287 said:
Do you have a scale that's accurate within 0.1grains? You might try weighing the remainder of the ammo to see if any of them vary from the average weight by a significant amount (say, 3.5 - 5.0 grains). Use an inertial bullet-puller to pull one cartridge of average weight apart, and weigh the powder charge. Do the same with one that varies far from the average weight. Compare the powder charges. When you contact the ammo factory, your findings may be diagnostic of the overall problem.

You MAY find that there's too much variance among the weights of the individual rounds for a meaningful comparison to be made, but it would take you less than an hour to weigh them with a digital scale. In any case, I'd like to know what you find out, when you talk to Summit.
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Weighing may find a variance, but the other way a round can quickly become overpressured is if there is insufficient case neck tension, and slamming the cartridge up the feed ramp pushes the bullet back into the case far enough. A .380 case is pretty tiny, and it doesn't take much for pressure to go rapidly into the red zone when the case volume is so small.

The people who are constantly unloading and reloading their everyday carry guns are at great risk of this scenario (unless they use a cannelured case, like Hornady's Critical Duty). Here is a picture one guy posted of his rounds after being warned about repeated chambering of the same carry ammo. Personally, I think repeated chambering of ammo pushing the bullet into the case accounts for a lot of mysterious range KABOOM's, but in the above case, poor neck tension could certainly be a suspect.

P1000122-W640_zps5ad486b7.jpg

P1000128-W640_zpsf31aa9c1.jpg
 
I just joined to add - same gun - same ammo - more disastrous result.

Photos.

http://imgur.com/a/nOQCf

Short version. 2 new guns. Ran several mags of Federal thru, then loaded up both with Summit. Plan was to shoot a box thru each.

1st mag seemed ok - Maybe a FTE - can not remember. 2nd mag - mine FTE - I had to set it down on the bench as it did not clear easily. I noticed the takedown pin was popped out a little. Took gloves off for grip, could not get back in. Took safety glasses off then noticed the small crack.

About that time the other one kabooms. It split the case. It was the 2nd round of Summiit thru it.

No reply from S&W yet. Summit want's Ammo back and offered $$ towards repair (if S&W hesitates).

Several possibilities - and will keep everyone updated.

Have not been to the LGS yet - but will in a day or 2.

Again - new here - have read stuff before - but never joined 'till now.
 
Jumping Frog,

The people who are constantly unloading and reloading their everyday carry guns are at great risk of this scenario
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That was not an issue with my mini Kaboom. Unless the fresh ammo that popped somehow set back during it's first chambering as I was shooting the gun. Straight from the box to the magazine to the gun.

Phaskins,

Glad you came to this thread. Read that link. Sounds familiar. :) :(

Just got off the phone with the guy at Summit. Sounds like a good guy who is trying to rectify the issue and determine cause. He is going to try and get the ammo I experienced the kaboom with from the LGS where I traded it back. He knows the LGS owner. I told him that I left one spent/bulged case in with the unspent cartridges.

He said he's been making ammo since '99 and the only issue he's had are these incidences with (I'm assuming) our three Bodyguards. BTW, I could not see the pics clearly at that link. Are your Bodyguards the older laser versions or the newer non-laser M&P ones like mine?

Glad you and your lady were not seriously hurt. I also got a little schrapnel nick on the nose that caused a bleed. Would be interested to know what Smith might have to say if they get back with you.

Edit:
Holy crap...I went to your pic link instead of the "Ohio" link posted earlier. Your incident was much worse.
 
Try this
http://i.imgur.com/X3q3re8.jpg

I've had email with Summit - I was unable to get any cases. I did look at a few of the first 2 or 3 from the gun, but after the "incident" I never even thought about it.

If you can't see them - someone HELP :???

8WPRC9L.jpg


Drop me a email and I'll shoot direct





Duplicate attempt


X3q3re8.jpg
 
Bummer on that one.

Contact both manufacturers. Send letters and pictures. Certified would be best and request repair and replacement.

I am liking my sig 238 HD even better seeing these shots!
 
Follow up

Summit has informed me they believe some of that lot may have over pressure issues. They have already offered to reimburse for repair and shipping.

I doubt there is much Smith can do - but you never know :)

I'm still waiting to hear from S&W, they probably still under 3' of snow.
 
The usual practice when a frame or receiver is damaged beyond economical repair is replacement. The maker can replace a frame and give the new frame the same serial number as the destroyed one, which means, legally, it is the "same" firearm. Or they can simply replace your gun with a new one, (legally, a different gun).

Looks like the ammo company is willing to accept that their error(s) could be the cause, and will cover the damages. This is a good thing, and the company is to be commended for their willingness to act in good faith.

As to the gun with the shattered frame (cracked seems to mild a word), wow!

I wonder if, under identical circumstances, would a steel framed gun have failed to the same degree? (actual curiosity, not meant as a bash against polymer).

The only "ka-boom" type incident I have ever personally witnessed happen was with a friend's Pit Bull (1911 variant), and he was shooting WW white box ammo. Cannot say was actual "ka-boom" like the one(s) here, never found the offending case. Unusual report (actually sounding like "ka-boom" and not a normal shot), and, and "something" blew off the magazine floorplate, dumping remaining rounds, spring & follower to the ground. No other damage to the gun was found.

I cannot equate this incident directly to the ones with the .380s in this thread, no way to know if the pressures were even remotely similar, but I think it likely that the "bad" .380 round(s) were higher pressure. So it leads me to wonder, if a steel framed gun would have faired differently in the same exact situation? OR, was it the gun design, more than the materials that allow it to fail in just that fashion?
 
Summit Ammunition Recall 1/27/2015



Summit Ammunition is recalling the following lots of 380 Ammunition:
Lot #s: 1785, 1787, 1791, 1803, 1809, 1817, 1849, 1855, 1879, 1900.

It is possible that some cartridges from these lots may exhibit excessive chamber pressure. Use of this product may result in firearm damage, or personal injury.

Discontinue use immediately, and contact Summit Ammunition for information on obtaining replacement ammunition at no cost to you.

This notice applies only to the lots numbers listed above.
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This quote taken directly from their website, what lot # do you have?
 
I don't know what exact lot I had (but it obviously was one of those listed) :D

LGS guy traded it out with me for a different brand and the guy from Summit was supposed to go to the LGS and get what I turned in. The guy at Summit must have posted the recall. Seems like a good guy just trying to make sure this won't happen again.

Also, another update with my situation....

Seeing how it appears the Kaboom was ammo related, I decided to call S&W and relate the story. Even though the LGS's gunsmith went over the gun before returning it to me and it seems to function fine now, they asked for me to send my gun in to check it out. It's a free ride there and back so I agreed. Can't hurt I figure.
 
Update

Both guns are on the way to S&W.

Ammo on the way to Summit. Summit sates overpressure - no explanation as of yet.

Now just waiting for analysis.

Afterthought, wish I would have looked carefully at both guns with a magnifier. We both found tiny pieces of material in out face. Non-magnetic but not even able to tell if plastic, brass or steel. Pin head size tiny or smaller.

Needed CSI :)
 
Just an update. Smith found the mag catch was damaged on my Bodyguard and replaced it. It still worked, but the kaboom did take a tad off the catch tip. Got it back yesterday via FedEx. Ran about 50 rounds of various plinker and self defense rounds through it with no problems. (no Summits)

If it functions fine after another 200 trial rounds I think I'm going to keep it. It is a nice shooting little gun for a .380.
 
Finally - have all mine resolved. S&W took forever to reply (via snail mail) that they were un-repairable. They offered a replacement price higher than the local shop. A couple days later I get an email and tracking ID that they had received them. S&W seemingly has some issues :)

A few major snow storms probably contributed to the time required.

Summit paid for replacements. Had them to the range once, 100 or so thru each and zero issues. No fte, ftf, stovepipes, etc. Other 380 have not been so "kind". Wife has some issues with the long trigger pull, but some snap cap time should work that out.

Local GS had had these on a sale in Jan. Sold over a pallet load at 259. Had several that did the same with Summit.

Love to know how many and if any other than Bodyguards did the same.
 
I'm reading this thread a bit late since it was first generated.
I'd not heard of this ammo brand previously and went to its website.
There's now a recall of .380 ammo
http://www.summitammunition.com/ammoinfo.htm

with specific lot numbers:
"Summit Ammunition is recalling the following lots of 380 Ammunition:
Lot #s: 1785, 1787, 1791, 1803, 1809, 1817, 1849, 1855, 1879, 1895, 1900.

It is possible that some cartridges from these lots may exhibit excessive chamber pressure. Use of this product may result in firearm damage, or personal injury.

Discontinue use immediately, and contact Summit Ammunition for information on obtaining replacement ammunition at no cost to you."
 
This ammo has been a Skicky in this handgun semi-auto area since Feb of this year. I imagin the 380ACP can be overloaded compared to the 9mm. The latter is over built and can take a broad range of energy. Still an overload is not a good thing. :o
 
ammo & plastic guns

You say you find nothing wrong, I found several places found their ammo in plastic baggies of 100, 200, plastic small boxes and almost all had mixed head stamps.
Arnt the mixed heads enough evidence of not new ammo?
How about the use of plastic guns.
Glock, the gun, has almost never been shot as much as it is happening now.
The police almost never shoot their guns as much as civilians do.
Glocks have never been used as much until now. Im not knocking the firm in any way, just stating facts. Most cops carry their guns for 10 years and never fire more than 20 or 30 rounds. Here we are firing more rounds in one day than most glocks in a year or three.
 
Glock, the gun, has almost never been shot as much as it is happening now.
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SWAT units, the manufactures, and military forces have fired Glocks extensively without major issues.

If it goes ka-boom, it's either an ammo issue or a QC issue with the pistol. Made properly (which they are 99.999% of the time), Glocks can take a ridiculous amount of abuse.
 
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