Pat Rogers
Member in memoriam
Warm here
It is a lot warmer here, but that will change. What issue will the Sling article be in?
It is a lot warmer here, but that will change. What issue will the Sling article be in?
Gunsite Three-Day Carbine
- Thread starter Denny Hansen
- Start date
Denny Hansen
Staff Emeritus
May cover date. Ships to subscribers on 03/03/03.
Jamie Young
New member
Maybe I've been watching too much tv, the majority of optics in "BlackHawk Down" are mounted on the handle. I have a couple pictures of troops in Afghanistan with handle mounted optics.
Pat Rogers
Member in memoriam
Sodapop,
Roger, but the Somalia incident was a long time ago, over 9 years in the past. While the M4 has been around since 86, it wasn't in use across the board until 96.
What weapons did you see handle mounted optics on? What kind of optics?
If it was the Big Army, then they were M16A2's, which have a non removable handle. Still, there is a gooseneck mount that permits the optic to be mounted in front of the carry handle.
You may have seen an unauthorized set up, or a field expedient one.
Roger, but the Somalia incident was a long time ago, over 9 years in the past. While the M4 has been around since 86, it wasn't in use across the board until 96.
What weapons did you see handle mounted optics on? What kind of optics?
If it was the Big Army, then they were M16A2's, which have a non removable handle. Still, there is a gooseneck mount that permits the optic to be mounted in front of the carry handle.
You may have seen an unauthorized set up, or a field expedient one.
Jamie Young
New member
I thought it was something like that. The whole A3 thing is starting to pop in my neck of the woods. I actually looked into getting one but ended up with the XM15E2. I may go with a shorty A3 next time around.
I have a picture of a US NEWS and World report with a soldier on the side of a mountain in Afghanistan with an M4 with an ACOG. I'll see if I can look around the house for the article and scan it. The gun looked really beaten up.
If I come home with an ACOG or Shorty A3 tomorrow its your fault, Pat.
*Big gunshow here in Pennsylvania this weekend*
blades, instructors of Pat's caliber across the country see hundreds of rifles run through their courses, firing thousands of rounds each year. They all say the same. Minis don't cut it. A quality AR clone does. When people with that much experience speak, amateurs like you and me could learn something by listening.
NO weapon is perfect, not even <GASP!> the M-1 Garand. They all break, they all need repair. The question is, which ones break a lot, and which ones break a little, under hard use?
The minis break a lot. The ARs break a little. A mini will do fine for the range, the ranch, and the occasional hard plinking. But they weren't designed for combat use, and these kind of classes put them through more than they can handle, and it shows.
NO weapon is perfect, not even <GASP!> the M-1 Garand. They all break, they all need repair. The question is, which ones break a lot, and which ones break a little, under hard use?
The minis break a lot. The ARs break a little. A mini will do fine for the range, the ranch, and the occasional hard plinking. But they weren't designed for combat use, and these kind of classes put them through more than they can handle, and it shows.
Jamie Young
New member
I've put over 6000rds threw my Mini 14 and never had anything break. But I wouldn't expect it take a beating at the same pace an AR would. I've heated up my Mini 14 and I could tell the thing was close to melting. My AR heats up and shows no signs of stress. I honestly think firing more than 50rds a minute threw the Mini 14 (especially with NATO ammo) will stress the gun and cause it to loose headspace or warp. I put 150rds threw it in about 5 minutes and the barrel changed from SS to a brownish yellow. Its now gone back to SS.
Kind of makes me worry about pushing it too hard.
But mine last 6000rds so far. Let's see if my XM15E2 can cut it.
With all the flaws the AR has, Its still probable the best carbine.
Kind of makes me worry about pushing it too hard.
But mine last 6000rds so far. Let's see if my XM15E2 can cut it.
With all the flaws the AR has, Its still probable the best carbine.Pat Rogers
Member in memoriam
Don't shoot the messenger
Blades,
The shooter was using PMC ball.
It has been my experience that the Colt AR's will generally work if not modified w/ aftermarket triggers and such. Quality Parts are a close second. The other makers guns will work or not, but QC is an issue.
You can draw an analogy to cars. Chevy/Ford/MB /BMW/ et al all make a good car. However, unless your name is God or you just started pumping guns / cars out today, you will turn out a lemon. If the basic design interfaced with the users doctrine on driving (don't take a super economy car to a 4WD championship and expect to do well) you will have something that suits your needs.
If you are a backyard apprentice bricklayer and decide to build the car to end all cars, you may not be happy with the results.
The same is true with the so called "Frankenguns" that are put together POS. They will cause problems.
Or as my Dad used to say "You can't make chicken salad with Chicken feces".
The mini is non ergonomic.
The safety is poorly located. It has a target disc type rear sight in a gun that exhibits poor (but acceptable under 50yds) accuracy.
Magazine changes are slow and ponderous.
Magazines (that work) are difficult to come by.
People bring AR's to the class- and use them for real- because they work best in that environment. If the mini did, they would use them.
Anyone that attends a shooting course without having certain spare parts (or beter yet, a spare gun) is cutting themselves short.
Parts wear and parts break. Not all AR's are created equal, nor are all AR parts equal.
Again- don't shoot the messenger. Would you rather that i lie about what does and does not work?
Blades,
The shooter was using PMC ball.
It has been my experience that the Colt AR's will generally work if not modified w/ aftermarket triggers and such. Quality Parts are a close second. The other makers guns will work or not, but QC is an issue.
You can draw an analogy to cars. Chevy/Ford/MB /BMW/ et al all make a good car. However, unless your name is God or you just started pumping guns / cars out today, you will turn out a lemon. If the basic design interfaced with the users doctrine on driving (don't take a super economy car to a 4WD championship and expect to do well) you will have something that suits your needs.
If you are a backyard apprentice bricklayer and decide to build the car to end all cars, you may not be happy with the results.
The same is true with the so called "Frankenguns" that are put together POS. They will cause problems.
Or as my Dad used to say "You can't make chicken salad with Chicken feces".
The mini is non ergonomic.
The safety is poorly located. It has a target disc type rear sight in a gun that exhibits poor (but acceptable under 50yds) accuracy.
Magazine changes are slow and ponderous.
Magazines (that work) are difficult to come by.
People bring AR's to the class- and use them for real- because they work best in that environment. If the mini did, they would use them.
Anyone that attends a shooting course without having certain spare parts (or beter yet, a spare gun) is cutting themselves short.
Parts wear and parts break. Not all AR's are created equal, nor are all AR parts equal.
Again- don't shoot the messenger. Would you rather that i lie about what does and does not work?
Denny: What kind of weather should I prepare for in March ? I would imagine that it is pretty much like it is here ?
Pat: Let's talk maintainence. I recently saw a publication from Gunsite that very briefly discussed lubrication of the AR15. They said that the biggest culpret in malfunctions was over-lubrication. They advised a very small amount of lube on the bolt. This is contrary to everything else I have read on the subject. What do you say ?
I started running yesterday. I need to get in a lot better shape not only for this course but I have my physical in two months including the treadmill. I really let myself go after not getting an elk tag for the last two years. Haven't cut back on the food and beer yet; that will be an after the holidays event.
I am working overtime on XMAS day and will hopefully pick up at least 48 more hours of overtime next week. That should get me a lot of the stuff I "need" for this course.
I have been out shooting my AR at least a couple times a week since deciding to take this course. Hopefully I am not reinforcing too many bad habits, but at least I am getting much more familiar with my rifle. However, if everything goes right between now and the course, I won't be using the rifles I have now which are both A2s with the carry handle and iron sights. I ordered a flat top upper from Bushmaster, but of course they told me it would be like six weeks. I more than likely will buy another complete rifle before the class since I know this upper will take longer than they say. What would be your suggestion for a new rifle. I know Pat prefers the Colts, but I never see any Colts in the stores. Bushmaster seems to be the main rifle I see around. I never asked my local dealer about getting a Colt. Does Colt still make AR15s for the public ?
Pat: Let's talk maintainence. I recently saw a publication from Gunsite that very briefly discussed lubrication of the AR15. They said that the biggest culpret in malfunctions was over-lubrication. They advised a very small amount of lube on the bolt. This is contrary to everything else I have read on the subject. What do you say ?
I started running yesterday. I need to get in a lot better shape not only for this course but I have my physical in two months including the treadmill. I really let myself go after not getting an elk tag for the last two years. Haven't cut back on the food and beer yet; that will be an after the holidays event.
I am working overtime on XMAS day and will hopefully pick up at least 48 more hours of overtime next week. That should get me a lot of the stuff I "need" for this course.
I have been out shooting my AR at least a couple times a week since deciding to take this course. Hopefully I am not reinforcing too many bad habits, but at least I am getting much more familiar with my rifle. However, if everything goes right between now and the course, I won't be using the rifles I have now which are both A2s with the carry handle and iron sights. I ordered a flat top upper from Bushmaster, but of course they told me it would be like six weeks. I more than likely will buy another complete rifle before the class since I know this upper will take longer than they say. What would be your suggestion for a new rifle. I know Pat prefers the Colts, but I never see any Colts in the stores. Bushmaster seems to be the main rifle I see around. I never asked my local dealer about getting a Colt. Does Colt still make AR15s for the public ?
Denny Hansen
Staff Emeritus
444-
For March in Arizona (like Nevada) I'd be prepared for almost anything. I've seen 80 degree temps in March, and I've seen it in the 20's with snow.
The three day class I attended in November saw the class in field jackets one day, rain gear the second, and T-shirts on the last day. Typical Arizona: if your don't like the weather wait an hour--it'll change
Denny
For March in Arizona (like Nevada) I'd be prepared for almost anything. I've seen 80 degree temps in March, and I've seen it in the 20's with snow.
The three day class I attended in November saw the class in field jackets one day, rain gear the second, and T-shirts on the last day. Typical Arizona: if your don't like the weather wait an hour--it'll change
Denny
Pat Rogers
Member in memoriam
Class
444,
You'll be in the desert ay 4700'. If you don't like the weather, wait 15 minutes and it will change.
Really. Bring clothing for all seasons. It will be very cold in the morning and warm during the day.
Sometimes. One April it was 70 on Day 1, then snowed for the rest of the week.
What Gunsite pub said not to lube the gun???
That is absolute nonsense. They used to have a gunsmith there that preached that, but he had no experience working the gun.
The AR needs to have lube to run efficiently. The TW25B is my favorite, but any oil will work.
Pay particular attention to the bolt/bolt carrier. You'll get a class on that while there.
Being in good physical shape never hurts, but you don't need to be a triathelete either. The 223 is pretty sedate. The 556 is prety active.
Bushmaster makes good guns. Most of the others do too. They all make bad ones sometimes too. You won't know until you use it- just like your car!
444,
You'll be in the desert ay 4700'. If you don't like the weather, wait 15 minutes and it will change.
Really. Bring clothing for all seasons. It will be very cold in the morning and warm during the day.
Sometimes. One April it was 70 on Day 1, then snowed for the rest of the week.
What Gunsite pub said not to lube the gun???
That is absolute nonsense. They used to have a gunsmith there that preached that, but he had no experience working the gun.
The AR needs to have lube to run efficiently. The TW25B is my favorite, but any oil will work.
Pay particular attention to the bolt/bolt carrier. You'll get a class on that while there.
Being in good physical shape never hurts, but you don't need to be a triathelete either. The 223 is pretty sedate. The 556 is prety active.
Bushmaster makes good guns. Most of the others do too. They all make bad ones sometimes too. You won't know until you use it- just like your car!
Pat, that advice was given by a gunsmith on the video tape but out by Gunsite entitled Tactical Carbine 1. It gave the guy's name but I don't recall it right now.
Like I said, the Bushmaster manual advises to lube the crap out of it with Break-Free. I have read a little on the Maryland AR15 website and the stuff that had on there said to lube everything including the sight ajustments. I don't recall a whole lot being said about it in my short military carreer. I do remember we used something, I think it was called LSA. It looked like pus. Real thick yellowish stuff. Anyway, I am glad to hear there will be a class on that. It sounds like this is going to be a real good all around course.
I notice that in order to take any more of the carbine classes I first need to take the Defensive Handgun course. I wish that wasn't the case. I am sure I would get a lot out of the course, but this stuff is expensive and I am more interested in the carbine stuff.
Like I said, the Bushmaster manual advises to lube the crap out of it with Break-Free. I have read a little on the Maryland AR15 website and the stuff that had on there said to lube everything including the sight ajustments. I don't recall a whole lot being said about it in my short military carreer. I do remember we used something, I think it was called LSA. It looked like pus. Real thick yellowish stuff. Anyway, I am glad to hear there will be a class on that. It sounds like this is going to be a real good all around course.
I notice that in order to take any more of the carbine classes I first need to take the Defensive Handgun course. I wish that wasn't the case. I am sure I would get a lot out of the course, but this stuff is expensive and I am more interested in the carbine stuff.
That certainly was not my experience in my 4 years in the Infantry. ('Twixt Nam and Grenada, so all peaceful.) More seemed to be better. (Within reason, of course.) I took part in a torture test up at Ft. Lewis. It wasn't planned as such, but somebody ordered too much ammo for my company for qualificaiton. Misplaced a decimal, I think. The CO said to burn it up. So we got some folks up on the line, and put the rest to work loading mags, and we went through it as fast as we could. Full auto mag dumps on the 25 meter target, from the hip, aren't usually standard military procedure on a range, but it sure was fun!
Anyway, we used a lot of LSA that day. Uh, MY issued weapon remained secured at the rear. I don't know which poor sucker had the pleasure of cleaning the weapon I fired that day, but mine had only been used to qualify. (It pays to keep your ears open, and know when to break the "never volunteer" rule. 
)That's the stuff. Lubricant, Small Arms, I think. I like it. Pat, Denny, any thoughts on LSA?
Pat Rogers
Member in memoriam
Lube
LSA was surpassed by CLP a long time ago.
I prefer not to use any of the petroleum based lubes due to the nasty things it can do to the human body.
Again- i prefer TW25B and use it on all of my guns.
That tape was produced a long time ago. The info about lube was bum scoop then, and still is now. If the gun has no lube, it won't run.
period.
The reason for the pistol requirement is simple. Gunsite teaches doctrine. The doctrine begins with the pistol.
The pistol is used a bunch during the advanced classes.
If we require a basic carbine prior to permitting a student taking an advanced carbine class, we can be assured that if he did in fact graduate, he has a basis for what is to follow.
If we permit someone to come in with no foundation for the pistol, he will generally present some issues that can slow the entire class down.
We have had a lot of people state that they know all that is needed, why they were in----(take your pick of branch of service), a cop, in a gunstore once, or shot competively, and therefore should have the req's waived.
Almost all of them caused problems during the class.
We need to crawl before we walk, and walk before we run.
LSA was surpassed by CLP a long time ago.
I prefer not to use any of the petroleum based lubes due to the nasty things it can do to the human body.
Again- i prefer TW25B and use it on all of my guns.
That tape was produced a long time ago. The info about lube was bum scoop then, and still is now. If the gun has no lube, it won't run.
period.
The reason for the pistol requirement is simple. Gunsite teaches doctrine. The doctrine begins with the pistol.
The pistol is used a bunch during the advanced classes.
If we require a basic carbine prior to permitting a student taking an advanced carbine class, we can be assured that if he did in fact graduate, he has a basis for what is to follow.
If we permit someone to come in with no foundation for the pistol, he will generally present some issues that can slow the entire class down.
We have had a lot of people state that they know all that is needed, why they were in----(take your pick of branch of service), a cop, in a gunstore once, or shot competively, and therefore should have the req's waived.
Almost all of them caused problems during the class.
We need to crawl before we walk, and walk before we run.
Right, I know where you are coming from Pat. I have no formal handgun training at all although I frequently shoot handguns and have competed in a couple different handgun sports. The stuff I did was not the type of stuff they teach at Gunsite. I would certainly love to do nothing but takes all the courses at all the schools, but money and time are in fixed quantities. I am rapidly finding out that this carbine course is going to cost me thousands. I assume the handgun course would do likewise. And in order to spend thousands on an advanced carbine class, I will have to spend the thousands on the pistol class. Not to mention of course the vacation time. Oh well.......................
Pat, not only have I been inside a gun shoppe oncet, but I've read a couple of gun articles (you know--imaginary goats or 9 vs. 45 with mandatory photos of pointing firearms at self) written by Kalifornee guys in flowered shirts who also write about "hot rods" and beach volleyball. Does this make me double-certified expert?
444, Pat knows a lot more, but as another alternative, have you tried Kellube on your carbine? I like it for when you shoot a lot.
Hey, don't worry it's only money (I tell the IRS and the IDoR this all the time). On the positive side, think of all the antinquing you'll not have to do by enrolling in class. "Honey, I'd love to go look at old, feckless furniture, but I've GOT to get ready for Gunsite."
444, Pat knows a lot more, but as another alternative, have you tried Kellube on your carbine? I like it for when you shoot a lot.
Hey, don't worry it's only money (I tell the IRS and the IDoR this all the time). On the positive side, think of all the antinquing you'll not have to do by enrolling in class. "Honey, I'd love to go look at old, feckless furniture, but I've GOT to get ready for Gunsite."
Denny Hansen
Staff Emeritus
444-
Another option is to log onto the Weather Channel's website shortly before departure. They'll give a rough idea of what to expect for the following week. Zip code for Chino Valley (just South of Gunsite) is 86323.
captainHoek-
One lube that doesn't seem to burn off very easily and in my experience has worked very good is plain old ATF fluid. When you think what kind of temp your transmission gets up to, makes sense. I've also experimented with some of the new synthetic oils for cars. Three bucks a quart instead of 5-6 bucks for a small bottle. Doesn't say "gun lube" on the bottle, but works damn well.
Denny
Another option is to log onto the Weather Channel's website shortly before departure. They'll give a rough idea of what to expect for the following week. Zip code for Chino Valley (just South of Gunsite) is 86323.
captainHoek-
One lube that doesn't seem to burn off very easily and in my experience has worked very good is plain old ATF fluid. When you think what kind of temp your transmission gets up to, makes sense. I've also experimented with some of the new synthetic oils for cars. Three bucks a quart instead of 5-6 bucks for a small bottle. Doesn't say "gun lube" on the bottle, but works damn well.
Denny
Ohhhh nooooo, Denny! not the dreaded "Gun Scrubber vs. brake cleaner" thread again!
But I'm with the brake cleaner crowd, so I'm glad to get tips like yours. Thanks! I was away from gunning for a good number of years, so I'm not well versed on modern lubricants. That's why I missed the LSA to CLP change.
Speaking of course pre-regquisites, would John Farnam's 3 day course meet the pre-reqs for the carbine class? 444, you won't need to spend thousands on John's class.
http://www.defense-training.com/courses/index.html
BTW, his quips and quotes aaare worth reading.