Gunshop Gurus strike again.....

I've had salesman that told me Rugers were good now because they make them in the U.S. again. I've been told that the 10mm is more powerful than a .44 mag and that pistol carbines have lower velocity because the long barrel causes too much 'drag' on the bullet. I've also been told that Glocks melt if you shoot them too much in a day. I have heard a ton of this kind of advice from the counter experts over the years. I actually like the guys that just say "I don't know." No wonder I only shop at 2 places anymore. The sporting good chains are the worst by far. Find another place to shop.

BTW, The deals at most of these stores are usually worse than the regular prices at the real gun shops, except for ammo, but I'll give the extra buck or two for that to the small owners.
 
Do I understand correctly that you are recommending a new shooter start with a 2" 357 Magnum revolver and shoot Magnum ammunition in it? And if I read some of the posts correctly, most of you think that is a good idea?

I was responsible for training and qualifying a 400 person law enforcement agency and since retirement have trained close to 800 people for CCW permits in my state. All of that experience says a 2" revolver is not a good choice for a beginner (it is a weapon for an experienced revolver shooter) and a 357 Magnum is a poor choice in that gun for experienced shooters.

Guess I live in a different universe than the rest of you.
YMMV!
 
For the new shooter I would recommend a 38 revolver w/ at least a 4" barrel. After learning firearms safety rules the next thing is ability which leads to confidence. To gain ability & confidence the new shooter needs to be able to hit the target. A snubnose revolver w/ 357 magnum loads is the wrong tool. The recoil of a 357 magnum rd out of the short barrel will hurt the new shooters hands & the lack of ability to hit the target accuratly will not give the new shooter the confidence to continue shooting. Start with a 38 revolve w/ 4" barrel. After ability & confidenced are gained then move to 357 magnum loads. Then move to a shorter barrel.
 
Whether or not the snubbie can hit anything past 15 yards is irrelevent. It is built for combat and most combat is WAY less than 15 yards. Shouldn't even be a point of comment.

I agree that starting off with a snubbie and loud ammo is difficult. After your friend has fired a few, note where they are going--chances are 7:00 due to noise/recoil anticipation. Put some dead rounds between live rounds in the cylinder and watch what happens when the dead rounds come under the hammer. If the sights do not remain rock solid, it is time to regroup.

Personally, I prefer not to take the chance of creating a flinch. It is a lot easier to prevent than cure.
 
DaveT,

And if I read some of the posts correctly, most of you think that is a good idea?
Click to expand...

No, we were commenting on the silliness of the Gun Shop Commando who told our heroine that "you wont be able to hit farther than 15 yards with a snubbie".
 
I think I was misunderstood. I was trying to show her that a snub can hit at over 15 yards. Not that it was best for that, just that it can be done.

I shot some .357 mag loads in the gun. she did not. The topic of me shooting the .357 loads in the gun and that she could tell the difference came up. She then told me that he told her not to use the .357 because she could not handle it. Telling her that was stupid because it leaves her with a bad impression and a mental barrier to using the 357 later. I agree that a new shooter should not use the magnum load until they master the .38 and the .38 +p.
 
You should take her out again...after explaining to her again, that the Mag loads are not bad...just a part of PROGRESSION. Shoot the 357 one handed and say " See..its not that bad! " She may never shoot it but you can give her more comfort now and that may sway her later on. 110gr JHP's are easy on most shooters, in my experience they are not much worse than +p's
Shoot well
 
My wife has confiscated my 2 SP101's, Colt Cobra, and 2 Rossi's. All with 2 to 3" barrels. While in a local gunshop to purchase some ammo the clerk asked her what she was using the 38 +p's in so she told him. He then said the exact same thing(except it was 10 feet). She then asked if he would like to participate in an experiment by going to the range with us and he could stand at the 50yrd bern while she fired 1 shot aiming at him with the 2" Rossi. He then looked quizically at her and said "I guess your experienced enough". She then said "I guess your not". I laughed all day!




=
 
I’m going to try and explain what I meant in my first post on this subject.

My experience (which I outlined before) indicates to me that very few people can control (shoot well) the small framed 2” 38 Special revolvers, particularly in DA mode. Plus P 38s make this a smaller group and when you graduate to 357 Magnums the group of people who can control the gun is so small I have yet to meet one.

I’m sure a couple of you are yelling at your computer screen right now, telling me you can easily control the 357 mag. Please remember I’m talking about 2” J-Frame size guns in double action. And to take my point one step further, do it fast! I won’t even get into Titanium snubbies or this will become ridiculous.

On a nearly monthly basis I see people coming out for renewal of their CCW permits who qualify with 2” 38s. Even those with the newer guns chambered for “Magnums” don’t try to qualify with that ammo. At the 10 yard line one of three things happens: they either cock the hammer and shoot single action (not the way you would defend yourself in real life); they shoot DA (when forced to by design, like a Model 640) very deliberately and slowly; or they miss the scoring area which is the “A” zone on an IPSC target. I saw much the same kind of performance in my LEO days when our deputies came out for “Off Duty” weapon qualification.

Give this an honest try. Put up an IPSC silhouette with the 6”X14” A-Zone. Get back about 4 yards and from concealment (the way you carry your gun) and draw and fire two shots in the “A” zone - in under 2 seconds. Then go to the ready position and on a second command, put one more shot in the “A” zone of the head, this time in less than 1.5 seconds. I have met very few people who can do this consistently with a 2” five shot revolver. I have never met anyone who can do it with a 2” five shot loaded with Magnum ammunition.

On these gun boards, we get so caught up in equipment (guns, loads, holsters, etc) we often over look the most important consideration of all - can you hit what you’re shooting at QUICKLY? I don’t really care what kind of gun you carry or what you load it with. I do care (particularly when it comes to my students) if you can hit what you are shooting at quickly and on demand. I see far too many choices that are based on ego or macho or some other damn thing, not on practicality or realism.

For all of the above and more, I think a 2” revolver is a poor choice for a beginner and having them try 357 Magnums just makes that poor decision worse.
 
. Please remember I’m talking about 2” J-Frame size guns in double action. And to take my point one step further, do it fast! I won’t even get into Titanium snubbies or this will become ridiculous.
Click to expand...

I agree that few can.
BUT....for those that can..
Let them.

Good test is a playing card at 10 yards.
If they can put four or five in the card rapid fire...
Don't critique their stance etc.
And definately not their choice of weapon.

Row of empty shot shells at 10 yards good too.

Sam
 
Sam, you said,

"....for those that can..
Let them."

I never said not to let them. If you can do it more power to you. But, I can honestly say I have never met someone who could put four or five shots into a playing card at 10 yards "rapid fire" with a 2" J-frame 357 Magnum. I know damn few people who can do that with any gun.

And, I still maintain this is just a bad idea for a beginner, which is what got me posting on this subject in the first place.

If I've offended anyone, I appologize. No offense was intended. I was just expressing a strongly held belief.
 
My bottomline response is that the gunshop guru opened his mouth twice when he didn't need to. The first comment he made is irrelevent. The second is prejudicial. He should stick to working in the stock room.
 
"I have never met anyone who can do it with a 2” five shot loaded with Magnum ammunition."

Too bad you're in Tucson...

Some of the people at the IDPA matches around here are downright scary with their snubbies.

I'm damned good, but these people are scary.
 
Dave T.
I wont take offense to your post...I understood and agree. Many many shooters, especially those new to CCW get the "Bigger the better" theory going and run with it. Hopefully, after they realize they may have a little too much gun...at least for right now..they will down grade to a more suitable caliber.

I like your test...reads as follows;

"Give this an honest try. Put up an IPSC silhouette with the 6”X14” A-Zone. Get back about 4 yards and from concealment (the way you carry your gun) and draw and fire two shots in the “A” zone - in under 2 seconds. Then go to the ready position and on a second command, put one more shot in the “A” zone of the head, this time in less than 1.5 seconds. I have met very few people who can do this consistently with a 2” five shot revolver. I have never met anyone who can do it with a 2” five shot loaded with Magnum ammunition"

I havent tried this but honestly believe I can do it...Ill have to see.
I carry an SP101 w/ 125gr Gold Dots as my always primary...
The first part of your test will be the hardest...the second part "from ready...etc" sounds less harsh to me. Just to verify "Ready" is with the gun, muzzle down in front of you?

Thanks for the test....and Shoot well
 
Mike,

I was involved in founding IPSC here in "wimpy" Tucson back in 1979, then I was one of the ones involved in starting IDPA here in the mid-90s though I don't remember exactly when that was.

It wouldn't take the fingers of one hand to count the number of people who have even shot a "snubby" and, given the IDPA power factor, nobody shoots Magnum ammunition, even in GP-100s or 586s.

Guess you Virginia types are just real men!

Eric,

Yes, "ready position" is generally two hand grip, forty-five degree angle with finger off the trigger. Remember, to show "control" you have to hit the "A" zone of the head which is about 1.5" X 3". At speed it is a lot harder than you might imagine - I speak from experience.

If you can do it with a snubby loaded with magnums, more power to you. I can't, at least not at that speed and not with any consistancy. Good luck and enjoy.
 
Dave....No offence taken.
I saw no mention of magnum ammo in the original post.
AND spaced the "new shooter" part.

At least we agree on..
"If they can, let em."

Sam
 
Get off your high horse and circulate among the people you're apparently looking down on, Dave. I don't know why you think I was putting Tucson -- or you -- down. I wasn't. :rolleyes:

I don't know what goes on in Tucson, but it sounds as if the "gamers/snobs" have taken over your IDPA matches -- the ones who no longer look at IDPA as practice for carrying their CCWs, but look only at it as another form of sport to be conquored to their whims, not unlike sporting clays, PPC, IPSC, etc.

Luckily the group I shoot IDPA occasionally hasn't fallen to that mindset yet.

When I get to a match (which isn't frequently enough) it's a toss up whether I'm going to be shooting my S&W 042 .38 Spl. or my Model 19 2.5" .357 Mag. But I'm not the only one who shows up with the little guns, and I'm certainly not the best of the crop.

One thing I do know, though, is that there's no lack of small J and K frame and the like revolvers at the matches. But, I guess since you were a founder in Tucson, you know better than anyone what's being shot in Virginia, and how well people a continent-width away can shoot the guns they choose to carry.

Luckily, the group I shoot with seems to be less concerned about power factor rules (is the skell who tries to stick a knife in your gut worried about power factors, or is that more BS artificality thought up by the "gamer/snobs" and designed to exclude certain shooters and guns from the events, or is Mr. Skell going to be more impressed with you sticking a couple slugs in his sorry criminal ass?) and more about practical application of marksmanship and gun handling.

When I shoot these matches, I shoot my carry ammo or handloads designed to emulate my carry ammo -- in .38 it's 125-gr. +P, in .357 it's 125-gr. Remington Gold Dot.

Other times I may take my Kahr. One of these days I'm going to shoot it with my Taurus PT-22.

But, since you do apparently know all, please tell me which gun I'm planning on shooting at the next IDPA event I attend?
 
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