Gun terms that just don't go together

Quick history lesson.
In Germany in 1942 a team of design engineers came up with a new type of weapon. It had more firepower than a pistol (or sub-machine gun), but not as much as a full sized rifle.
It was self-loading, not bolt action, & was capable of both semi-automatic & fully automatic fire. It took a round that was very similar to the modern AK-47 s short bottleneck case, in fact the 7.62X39mm "AK" round was developed from it. The reduction in power gave acceptable range of about 3~400 yds, much less than the 8X57 Kar 98's 1300yds, but much more than the popular 9mm pistol round. Its advantage was reduced mass, weight & recoil. This allowed a compact light easily mass produced weapon to fire full auto & remain on target.
It was called the MP43(H) or MP-43(W) depending on whose design you picked.

The Haenel & Walther factories presented it to Adolph Hitler as the new "maschine pistolen" or sub-machine gun. He hated it utterly. He forbade it's production.

Unfortunately both companies had been sending the MP43s to the Eastern front where they were a huge success, a bit late to not make them!

A bit of Teutonic head scratching ensued & the plans were re-labelled. The product was no longer a maschine pistolen, but a "Stumgewher", or rifle for storm tactics, ie an assault rifle. It was renamed the StG44 or assault rifle, model of 1944 & presented to Der Fuhrer. He loved the New assault weapon, much better than the crappy sub-machine gun the factories had been wasting time on before!

So the definition of a real "assault weapon" comes from the MP43/StG44 as;
"A compact, lightweight selective fire rifle using a reduced, or intermediate power round capable of short bursts of full automatic fire."

The sad fact is that there are very few assault rifles, the AK series being the most common.

Even sadder is the term "stumgewehr, or assault weapon", was always from day 1 a political expediency more than a technical term!:eek:
 
Brasscatcher84 said:
Coastie, an individuals choice of equipment is a tactical decision, whether you think so or not. Calling a firearm tactical implies it's specific purpose, kind of like calling my New Balances "running shoes." Now, I've never seen shoes run by themselves, either. It's common descriptive phrasing, and you don't have to like it to make it proper.

You'll hear no argument from me that buying a gun may be incorporated into one's tactical/HD/SD/whatever plan.

You'll hear no argument from me that firearms are often bought for specific purposes.

However, a gun is not a tactical gun just because I (or anyone else for that matter) say it is tactical. It is an inanimate object, incapable of making decisions.

Definition of TACTICAL
1: of or relating to combat tactics
(1) : of or occurring at the battlefront
(2) : using or being weapons or forces employed at the battlefront
2a : of or relating to tactics: as
(1) : of or relating to small-scale actions serving a larger purpose
(2) : made or carried out with only a limited or immediate end in view
b : adroit in planning or maneuvering to accomplish a purpose
— tac·ti·cal·ly \-k(ə-)lē\ adverb

Examples of TACTICAL
They gained a tactical advantage by joining with one of their competitors.
He made a serious tactical error.
The planes provided tactical air support for the soldiers on the ground.

First Known Use of TACTICAL
1570

Related to TACTICAL
Synonyms: advisable, desirable, judicious, politic, prudent, expedient, wise
Antonyms: impolitic, imprudent, inadvisable, inexpedient, injudicious, unwise

Unless your guns are employed at the battlefront, they are not tactical. Even then, the term "tactical" (when used to describe a weapon) is part of a battle plan, part of a coordinated effort to achieve an objective, therefore its involvement in the tactics of the operation determine it's label of "tactical" not its appearance or accessories.

You'll find that every definition (except the one I just discussed) lists an activity or decision-making process... Things which firearms (and most other tools without circuitry) are incapable of doing.

I'm didn't say what I said because I simply hate the term "tactical weapon" in its civilian use. I hate the term "tactical weapon" because it is inaccurate and misleading, simply a marketing gimmick to sell to the SWAT/Call of Duty/Battlefield/Xbox/PS3 crowd.

It's not simply because I say that they aren't tactical. They are not tactical because they are not capable of making calculated, objective-centered decisions, which is the core of the word "tactics", upon which the word tactical is based.

Kind of like "assault weapon" is simply a made-up word the anti-gun crowd uses (do not confuse this with assault rifle, which the Germans developed in the 1940's). If I bludgeon someone to death with a brick, that brick is every bit of an assault weapon as a gun I used to shoot someone else to death.
 
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A couple:

-- An "arsenal" of three guns (media favorite)

-- "Shake and Bake" finish

-- A manual repeating double action non-revolving pistol, a/k/a the Semmerling

-- .357 magnum +P, .44 magnum +P, etc.
 
I hate when the terms "stopping power" or "knockdown power" are used in reference to handguns. It makes me think the person either has no experience with guns or has failed to seek out education in the matter. The first I can work with, the second just annoys me.
 
Oh, but there are semi-automatic transmissions. And now here's another history lesson.

I've certainly heard the story of the MP-44. There was also a different rifle called (I think) the Volksturm, which was also chambered for the same short cartridge. It was semi-auto only and even more importantly had no pistol grip, so it could not possibly be an assault rifle, although it had a high capacity magazine--so maybe it was. Parts of it were black, too. At about the same time, there was also developed for air force paratroopers the FG-42, which was select-fire, had a "high capacity" magazine and even a pistol grip, yet was chambered in the standard 8mm rifle caliber. So was it an assault rifle?

Even earlier, there was another infantry rifle chambered in .30-06 that was select fire, though it had no bipod or pistol grip but it had a high capacity magazine and was select fire. The marketing people claimed that it was intended to be used in the assault. You were supposed to fire a burst when your left (or was it the right) foot hit the ground. Was it an assault rifle or not? It was designed by some guy named Browning but I don't know whatever became of the idea. It sounds like it had promise.

If you chambered something in 6.5 Jap or 6.5 Swede, could you make an assault rifle? Wasn't the 7.62 NATO considered an intermediate cartridge? Wasn't the M14 an assault rifle? I saw them with pistol grips when I was in the army and you can get them in black now, for the purist.
 
OK, coastie. I get what you're saying. I really do. I can't stand the term for the mere fact it's overused...especially in advertising attracting the very crowd from which you spoke.

However, I think you need to look at the term at a more simplified manner. It's just an adjective describing characteristics of said firearm. Just as another member pointing out his New Balance "running shoes". The shoes don't run on their own. They're inanimate objects that don't have the capability to run. But they have the design and/or features to accomodate the intention of its own adjective. Same as a "tactical rifle" such as an AR15/M4. The design of the firearm and it's available features enable for the user to employ tactics to his/her intent.

Now, yes, you can say that for anything if you stretch the meaning such as your brick comment. But let's look at this realistically. Is a normal run-of-the-mill brick really used primarily for purposes as generally accepted meaning of the term tactical? I think not.

As much as the term makes me wanna puke, I have to say I respectfully disagree with your sentiment.

Nocturnus31 said:
Gun Blade... for all of you Final Fantasy fans!

I can attest to that oxymoron. Loved playing the series when I was younger. Even then, I had to stomach past the idiotic invention of the designer to enjoy those games....
 
Fair enough Shane, but I'm sticking to my (ordinary, non-tactical) guns on this one.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree...

;)
 
OK, terms that should not "go together":
- Bore diameter followed by "caliber", as in ".30 caliber". It is 30-caliber, because 1 caliber is equal to 1/100th of an inch.

- Related to the above, metric designation of bore diameter followed by "caliber", as in "7mm caliber". No, the bore is 7mm.

- Referring to the chambering of a firearm as "caliber", as in "what caliber does your rifle shoot?". Yes, I know, manufacturers actually mark firearms "30-06 caliber" and other such nonsense. They also stamp their firearms "read safety manual before handling this firearm" and yet I have to pick up the firearm in order to read the stupid sticker (no, that is not derogatory, that is what it is called). And lest we forget one of the rules of logic, if 1,000 people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. Or a Democratic Party convention.

- Using the word "quality" as a descriptive. Quality is an attribute, much like color, but is not descriptive in and of itself. It needs a modifier, as in "high quality" or "low quality", much like "color" needs a descriptive modifier such as "red" or "blue", etc. So the previously mentioned "S&W quality" logo means exactly that, i.e. "we make 'em like this".

- Confusing "accuracy" and "precision", or using them interchangeably, or using them as a descriptive term. "That's a precision weapon" could just as easily refer to a rock, i.e. it hit the same place the last one did. Not necessarily on target, but the same place.
 
No problem there, coastie. Wasn't the first time. Hopefully won't be the last. Keeps the world from having a bunch of robots wondering aimlessly...
 
BigBrute said:
Stevie-Ray said:
Sad, but true Stevie.

I disagree. Many Russian SKSs and some Norincos are much more capable than 99% of shooters give them credit for.

The major disconnect comes from people ditching the factory sights -- using ridiculous mounts that let their cheap scopes, peeps, red-dots, and reflex sights flop around on the dust cover, stock, hand guard, or an ill-fitting sight pin.

And, of course, no one buys real ammo for their SKSs. Everyone uses the cheapest crap they can find. Hmmm... cheap ammo not performing well... Who 'da thunk it? :rolleyes:

Use a solid sighting system.
Clean up the crown (you wouldn't leave a 1/4" divot in the crown of your .30-06; why leave one in the crown of your SKS?).
Shoot REAL ammo (not the cheap import crap -- even old surplus ammo is better than the current mass-imports).
 
A few points to discuss...

I have heard a slightly different story about the Sturmgewehr, and sadly, can provide no references at this time, so consider it anecdoatal, but entirely plausible.

During the years when the Nazis were winning, developement of many weapons were either given a low priority or canclled entirely. Hitler had ordered further developement of submachineguns (MaschinenPistole) be suspended, as he felt there was no need for wasting the resources. He did, however allow further developement of rifles.

Without Hitler's knowledge the MP 43 was developed (this in not a unique instance, several different designs of weapons, including some aircraft were developed without "official" approval, and sometimes inspite of official orders), and small numbers were sent to the Eastern Front for troop trials.

At some time a few months later, at a conference with some officers returning from the front, Hilter asked what they needed, and they told him "more of the new rifles!" Hitler was perplexed, and on learning the details, enraged at having his orders flouted. However, shortly afterwards, he was given a demonstration of the "new rifles" and became an enthusiastic convert, nameing the "Sturmgewehr" (Assault Rifle). The designation was then changed from MP44 to Stg44 (from machine pistol to assault rifle).

Captured examples led the Allies to form the general definition of "assault rifle", based on the main characteristics of the Stg 44/45. Selective fire, intermediate cartridge, were the defining characteristics. Box magazine fed, straight stock, pistol grip, these were all common features, but were not what was used to define "assault rifle".

The standard of "intermediate power" cartridge was based on the common rifle and pistol cartridges in use during WWII. SO, anything more powerful than the standard pistol rounds (9mm, .45acp 7.62x25mm, etc.) and less powerful then the standard infantry rifle rounds (.30-06, 8mm Mauser, 6.5/7.7mm Jap, 7.62x54R, .303 British, etc.) was considered to be "intemediate power. And yes, this did include the .30 carbine, as it was above "regular" pistol power. Later on, the 5.56mm (.223 Rem) was classed in the intermediate power range, due primarily to its small bore size.

Oh, but there are semi-automatic transmissions. And now here's another history lesson.

I've certainly heard the story of the MP-44. There was also a different rifle called (I think) the Volksturm, which was also chambered for the same short cartridge. It was semi-auto only and even more importantly had no pistol grip, so it could not possibly be an assault rifle, although it had a high capacity magazine--so maybe it was. Parts of it were black, too. At about the same time, there was also developed for air force paratroopers the FG-42, which was select-fire, had a "high capacity" magazine and even a pistol grip, yet was chambered in the standard 8mm rifle caliber. So was it an assault rifle?

The Volksturm(a last ditch effort fielded in small numbers in 1945) would not be an assault rifle, if it lacked the select fire capacity.

The FG-42 (adopted in 1942) was a marvel of engineering, firing semi auto from the closed bolt, but full auto from the open bolt. But it does not fit the assault rifle definition, because it fires the full size 8x57mm infantry cartridge. I would be considered a "battle rifle" by the definitions we use today.

Even earlier, there was another infantry rifle chambered in .30-06 that was select fire, though it had no bipod or pistol grip but it had a high capacity magazine and was select fire. The marketing people claimed that it was intended to be used in the assault. You were supposed to fire a burst when your left (or was it the right) foot hit the ground. Was it an assault rifle or not? It was designed by some guy named Browning but I don't know whatever became of the idea. It sounds like it had promise.

Promise it did have, and it delivered! The BAR was considered an automatic rifle, (hence the name), but is technically a light machine gun, and some versions were full auto only, and had bipods. Introduced along with the BAR was the concept of "walking fire" and there was even a special bracket for the belt to put the butt of the gun in when advancing. Remember, this was 1918, and many concepts that looked good on paper didn't turn out quite as well in the field.

If you chambered something in 6.5 Jap or 6.5 Swede, could you make an assault rifle? Wasn't the 7.62 NATO considered an intermediate cartridge? Wasn't the M14 an assault rifle? I saw them with pistol grips when I was in the army and you can get them in black now, for the purist.

6.5mm Jap & 6.5 Swede would not be proper assault rifles, as they were considered "full power" infantry cartridges (although on the light end of the accepted power range in those days).

The 7.62 NATO was never considered an intermediate power cartridge, as it has the FULL POWER of the GI .30-06 load. Its 1/2" shorter length over the '06 has benefits for rifle design, and a slight saving in weight over the '06, but it is by no means an "intermediate power" round.

Where it gets really confusing to those who have not studied it is the translation of the word Sturm into English, and the language used by the anti gunners in crafting the 1994 AWB.

Sturm is generally translated into English in two ways. First is "storm", and meaning either storm as in weather, or to storm an objective, in the military sense. Which storm it is, depends on context. The other common translation is assault, which again refers to the military assaulting an objective. Confusion arises when people use the other English defintion of assault, the one used in law, of one person attacking another. In the broadest possible terms, it is correct, since both assault a bunker and assault an opponent involve an attack intended to cause harm, but using the English defintion of assault on an individual is ...imprecise, when translating the German term Sturm.

Fast forward to the late 80s and early 90s, and the anti gunner's media assault :rolleyes: on military look alike firearms ownership. Mass murders by crazed gunmen (the Stockton schoolyard shooting was the beginning of the medi blitz, focusing on the {semi auto} AK 47 used there. Other incidents, including the copycat shooting at a Kentucky printing plant, each using a military looking rifle, added further "ammo" to the media effort to prove how evil and dangerous thsese guns were, convieniently and constantly ignoring the fact that the men doing the shooting were mentally unbalanced, and nearly all of them on prescription mind altering medication!

In the beginning, they tried calling the rifles assault rifles, but we (and some others who were, unlike the media, concerned with facts), pointed out that they were NOT assault rifles, but semi auto military lookalikes, no different mechanically than many models of common sporting arms.

The media then tried for a while to call them "semiautomatic assault rifles", which was, I believe, their idea of being accurate. This phrase "semiautomatic assault rifle" soon prooved to be too cumbersome for a good sound bite. SO they settled on another term, one they made up, "assault weapon". This had the benefit, for them, of being a convient sound bite, sounding very much like assault rifle, and (even more importantly) since it was their made up term, they got to define it.

And, define it, they did. Their definition of an "assault weapon" did not include machine guns, OR and actual assault rifles! (which, under US law are machine guns). They defined asasault weapon as any semiautomatic firearm (rifle pistol or shotgun) with a "magic number" of certain features. Sometimes it was two (most usual), other times the magic number was three of the "evil" features. And those features were such evil things as:detatchable magazine; pistol grip; bayonet mount(lug); flash suppressor/flash hider, forward handgrip; heat shield; folding stock; any handgun NOT taking the magazine through the pistol grip, etc.

This defintion became codified into US law with the 1994 Assault Weapons Bill (AWB), and several state laws that basically mirrored the Federal one, without the Federal law's sunset provision.

SO, assault weapons are semi auto firearms with two (or more) comsmetic features from their proscribed list. NO single assault rifle was affected by the 1994 AWB, only semiautos.

And while the Federal AWB sunset in 2004, several state laws covering essentially the same ground, did not.

Now, with people's usage of language being as sloppy as it is, the difference in common conversation between Assault weapon and assault rifle has become even further blurred, with most people not recognizing, or caring about the difference. TO many people, if it looks like a modern military rifle, or has a large magazine, its an assault rifle or assault weapon, assault pistol, assault shotgun, etc. And that was the intent of the anti's when they created the term assault weapon.

Even a great many firearms enthusiasts use the terms incorrectly, usually without knowing they are even doing so.
 
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