Gun safety instructor shoots student
- Thread starter Garycw
- Start date
The problem is the rule that says, "no live ammunition in the classroom." That is a bad rule. It is a foolish rule. And it causes a certain number of these stupid, stupid, stupid accidents every single stinking freaking year.
The problem with that rule is that it trains people that they can handle guns stupidly, foolishly, carelessly, without any worry whatsoever – as long as the gun is "unloaded." This is exactly and precisely the opposite of what you want to be teaching your beginning students.
The actual rule you should be teaching your students is, "do not handle firearms – any firearm, loaded or not – unless you have a safe direction."
Most classrooms have no safe direction. They have walls that can be punched through by any handgun caliber. Or they have cinderblock walls where the bullet will ricochet off. They have multiple people moving around. Firearms should never be handled in these conditions. They should be left safely inside the holster (loaded or not, it does not matter). Or they should be left inside the range bag until such time as you can go to the range, where there is a safe direction.
Teach your students to be comfortable handling firearms only when it is safe to do so. Do not teach them to be comfortable handling firearms in unsafe conditions.
pax
The problem with that rule is that it trains people that they can handle guns stupidly, foolishly, carelessly, without any worry whatsoever – as long as the gun is "unloaded." This is exactly and precisely the opposite of what you want to be teaching your beginning students.
The actual rule you should be teaching your students is, "do not handle firearms – any firearm, loaded or not – unless you have a safe direction."
Most classrooms have no safe direction. They have walls that can be punched through by any handgun caliber. Or they have cinderblock walls where the bullet will ricochet off. They have multiple people moving around. Firearms should never be handled in these conditions. They should be left safely inside the holster (loaded or not, it does not matter). Or they should be left inside the range bag until such time as you can go to the range, where there is a safe direction.
Teach your students to be comfortable handling firearms only when it is safe to do so. Do not teach them to be comfortable handling firearms in unsafe conditions.
pax
Incidentally, in reference to the Lee Paige incident, part of the issue was that he told the person looking at the weapon what they were supposed to see: "Empty weapon, right? Empty weapon." People often see what they expect to see, and this person was no exception. The person apparently nodded and agreed with him that he was correct – without really looking.
If you insist on being among those ... errrrr, people ... who handle working firearms inside a classroom setting with no safe direction, and you think it is sufficient to ask somebody else to check your weapon, at least please exercise caution when asking them to check. Do not tell them what they see. Let them tell you what they see.
pax
If you insist on being among those ... errrrr, people ... who handle working firearms inside a classroom setting with no safe direction, and you think it is sufficient to ask somebody else to check your weapon, at least please exercise caution when asking them to check. Do not tell them what they see. Let them tell you what they see.
pax
Aguila Blanca
Staff
I still believe the rule against live ammo in a classroom is a good one, I suppose at least partially because that's the way I was trained. And perhaps more because I have seen too many people who think it's "cool" to carry a couple of live rounds in their pocket and try them in any gun they can get their hands on.
That said, the expectation that there isn't supposed to be any live ammo in the room is NOT an excuse for careless gun handling. In the recent incident, the class was a pre-CCW class, which means the purpose of the class wasn't to turn cab drivers into "operators," it was to teach newbies the fundamentals of handling a firearm SAFELY. In my state, the law is clear that the required class for a permit is a class in handgun "safety." Ditto Florida ... and probably a number of other states that require some kind of class as a prerequisite to a permit/license.
NRA Basic Pistol isn't teaching marksmanship. It's teaching people how to handle and shoot a gun safely. Irrespective of live ammo in the room, you simply can't teach people how to handle a gun safely by NOT handling guns safely in the classroom. Whether or not the school or the instructor has a "No live ammo in the classroom" rule, the first of the basic rules of gun safety is still "All guns are loaded."
Ignore that at your (and your students') peril.
That said, the expectation that there isn't supposed to be any live ammo in the room is NOT an excuse for careless gun handling. In the recent incident, the class was a pre-CCW class, which means the purpose of the class wasn't to turn cab drivers into "operators," it was to teach newbies the fundamentals of handling a firearm SAFELY. In my state, the law is clear that the required class for a permit is a class in handgun "safety." Ditto Florida ... and probably a number of other states that require some kind of class as a prerequisite to a permit/license.
NRA Basic Pistol isn't teaching marksmanship. It's teaching people how to handle and shoot a gun safely. Irrespective of live ammo in the room, you simply can't teach people how to handle a gun safely by NOT handling guns safely in the classroom. Whether or not the school or the instructor has a "No live ammo in the classroom" rule, the first of the basic rules of gun safety is still "All guns are loaded."
Ignore that at your (and your students') peril.
Let me try it again: there is no way to teach somebody to handle a firearm "safely" where there is no safe direction in which to point the gun. Period, full stop, end of story.
It is an illusion. It is a dangerous illusion. It leads to circumstances like this.
By definition, handling a functional firearm without a safe direction is, in actual fact, teaching people to handle guns carelessly. If you believe you absolutely must allow them to handle firearms inside your classroom, then you must have a safe direction. It is not enough to "pretend" that one direction or another is safe. It is certainly not enough to figure, "well, we don't allow ammunition in the classroom anyway so ..." That kind of thinking is what leads directly into injuries and deaths.
Treating the gun as if it is loaded means treating it with every ounce of respect you would give it if you knew for certain that there was live ammunition in your classroom. That includes being certain you have a solid backstop that will safely contain the bouncing bullet.
pax
It is an illusion. It is a dangerous illusion. It leads to circumstances like this.
By definition, handling a functional firearm without a safe direction is, in actual fact, teaching people to handle guns carelessly. If you believe you absolutely must allow them to handle firearms inside your classroom, then you must have a safe direction. It is not enough to "pretend" that one direction or another is safe. It is certainly not enough to figure, "well, we don't allow ammunition in the classroom anyway so ..." That kind of thinking is what leads directly into injuries and deaths.
Treating the gun as if it is loaded means treating it with every ounce of respect you would give it if you knew for certain that there was live ammunition in your classroom. That includes being certain you have a solid backstop that will safely contain the bouncing bullet.
pax
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Pax, all you're doing is arguing for the use of "blue guns" and firearms with yellow, training barrels or disabled firing pins. Both are good ideas, and I use both in my classes. I agree that most classrooms don't have a direction that is really safe. But you also can't teach people to handle a gun without showing them how to handle a gun, and allowing them to handle a gun.
Aguila,
We may have here a case of vehement agreement.
If you (generic you, not specific you) are going to allow students to handle firearms inside your classroom, you absolutely must have a genuine, real, definite, true safe direction in which to point the gun. That includes a solid backstop that would definitely stop the bullet from bouncing into a student's arm. And you must enforce the use of that safe direction, not casually allow yourself or your students to ignore it based on the fact that there is "no live ammunition" inside your classroom.
If you do not have that truly safe direction that would definitely stop a bullet and prevent it from bouncing around the room, or if you do not enforce its actual use, you are teaching your students to handle firearms in an unsafe manner. That is exactly the opposite of what you want to accomplish.
I don't care how "unloaded" the gun is, or how thoroughly you are convinced that you have "no live ammunition" in your classroom. If you do not have a truly safe direction, and you allow students to handle guns in that circumstance, you're teaching them to do something unsafe. And you are yourself behaving in an unsafe manner.
pax
We may have here a case of vehement agreement.
If you (generic you, not specific you) are going to allow students to handle firearms inside your classroom, you absolutely must have a genuine, real, definite, true safe direction in which to point the gun. That includes a solid backstop that would definitely stop the bullet from bouncing into a student's arm. And you must enforce the use of that safe direction, not casually allow yourself or your students to ignore it based on the fact that there is "no live ammunition" inside your classroom.
If you do not have that truly safe direction that would definitely stop a bullet and prevent it from bouncing around the room, or if you do not enforce its actual use, you are teaching your students to handle firearms in an unsafe manner. That is exactly the opposite of what you want to accomplish.
I don't care how "unloaded" the gun is, or how thoroughly you are convinced that you have "no live ammunition" in your classroom. If you do not have a truly safe direction, and you allow students to handle guns in that circumstance, you're teaching them to do something unsafe. And you are yourself behaving in an unsafe manner.
pax
I'd argue that we are doing it all wrong right from the start.
I agree that people need to be taught how to safely handle and shoot a firearm.
I disagree that classrooms are the way to do it. My father taught me. His older brother taught him, etc.
I don't think anyone would disagree that one on one instruction is the best way to teach something this important. I know some of you may make your living training others.
I think such training should be with a one to one student instructor ratio without exception.
I think the test should be administered by someone other then the instructor.
I think you should be able to test without a class.
Although the lessons are very important, they just are not that difficult to learn or teach in a one on one setting.
I agree that people need to be taught how to safely handle and shoot a firearm.
I disagree that classrooms are the way to do it. My father taught me. His older brother taught him, etc.
I don't think anyone would disagree that one on one instruction is the best way to teach something this important. I know some of you may make your living training others.
I think such training should be with a one to one student instructor ratio without exception.
I think the test should be administered by someone other then the instructor.
I think you should be able to test without a class.
Although the lessons are very important, they just are not that difficult to learn or teach in a one on one setting.
Evan Thomas
Inactive
In an ideal world, we'd all have a skilled friend or relative who could teach us to use firearms safely and well.
Failing that, many people have to rely on professional instruction; and many people prefer to learn from professionals, because they're... more professional. Most classes are a mixture of time spent imparting information and time spent teaching skills. The former is done most efficiently with a group, and much of the latter has to involve one-on-one instruction in any case.
One-on-one tutoring is an attractive idea on the surface, but in practice, it would be more expensive for the students and less feasible economically for the instructors. Requiring nothing but one-on-one instruction would not only price a lot of students out of the market; it would also make it harder for firearms instructors to make a living. (I don't doubt that many instructors would love to be able to teach for free, but, again, that's not the world we live in.)
Failing that, many people have to rely on professional instruction; and many people prefer to learn from professionals, because they're... more professional. Most classes are a mixture of time spent imparting information and time spent teaching skills. The former is done most efficiently with a group, and much of the latter has to involve one-on-one instruction in any case.
One-on-one tutoring is an attractive idea on the surface, but in practice, it would be more expensive for the students and less feasible economically for the instructors. Requiring nothing but one-on-one instruction would not only price a lot of students out of the market; it would also make it harder for firearms instructors to make a living. (I don't doubt that many instructors would love to be able to teach for free, but, again, that's not the world we live in.)
Who you calling "people"?...
Ha ha ha!
Seriously, thanks for the correction. Lee Paige was the former DEA agent(who by all documented accounts was "undercover"
when he did the gun safety briefing).
I agree with the TFL members that new students need firearms to be shown how to use them but many teaching points or methods can use ASP red guns/Ring guns for safety.
I had a security instructor a few years ago who claimed he was a former deputy sheriff & involved in 2 use of force shootings. He also said he was a US Army veteran(special forces/18 series).
His classroom style & teaching methods were somewhat lacking in my opine.
He constantly waved a unloaded Glock 19 around & had it in his hand for about 75% of the class.
I didn't put much stock into his lesson plan(s) but it irked me that new gun owners/students would take away a lot of nonsense & bad techniques.
Ha ha ha!
Seriously, thanks for the correction. Lee Paige was the former DEA agent(who by all documented accounts was "undercover"
when he did the gun safety briefing).I agree with the TFL members that new students need firearms to be shown how to use them but many teaching points or methods can use ASP red guns/Ring guns for safety.
I had a security instructor a few years ago who claimed he was a former deputy sheriff & involved in 2 use of force shootings. He also said he was a US Army veteran(special forces/18 series).
His classroom style & teaching methods were somewhat lacking in my opine.
He constantly waved a unloaded Glock 19 around & had it in his hand for about 75% of the class.
I didn't put much stock into his lesson plan(s) but it irked me that new gun owners/students would take away a lot of nonsense & bad techniques.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Pax -
Re: your post #48:
I take it, then, that you never handle a firearm in a gun shop, and run like hell if you see anyone else pick up a gun in a gun shop.
I also take it that you only clean and service your firearms at a range, where the muzzles can always be kept pointed down-range at a berm or backstop.
Re: your post #48:
I take it, then, that you never handle a firearm in a gun shop, and run like hell if you see anyone else pick up a gun in a gun shop.
I also take it that you only clean and service your firearms at a range, where the muzzles can always be kept pointed down-range at a berm or backstop.
pax said:
pax said:
While I am by no means anything more than a beginner on my best day, I think I have to disagree with Pax's absolutist statements from above. While the 4 rules should be followed EVERY time, I think we add more to the rules, making them impossible to follow.
Case in point: Rule #1 is often stated "All guns are always loaded." This is a logical fallacy, and, IMHO, silly. I know that my gun is capable of having the ammunition removed. I can remove the magazine, rack the slide, open the cylender, run the extractor, and remove all ammunition from the gun. By advocating a rule that is PATENTLY FALSE, we are teaching people to BREAK THE RULES anytime we advocate dry fire practice, cleaning a weapon, etc. I do not believe hyperbolic rules lead to better safety, but rather lead to more carelessness.
In the same vein, it seems as though Pax's statements of what a "Safe direction" are equally hyperbolic, pointed out by Aguila Blanca's rather pointed rebuttal.
on the other hand, no one would be safe when handling a gun in a gunstore. gosh, just putting it in a safe violates some rule about keeping it in a safe direction.
never know, your unloaded 22 mighht go off, put a round thorugh the roof and it might come down next door and hit the neighbor in his bomb shelter.
air soft isnt going to get you trained on a real gun. Not one weapon ive touched in a gunstore needed plastic pellets or electric batteries to use.
never know, your unloaded 22 mighht go off, put a round thorugh the roof and it might come down next door and hit the neighbor in his bomb shelter.
air soft isnt going to get you trained on a real gun. Not one weapon ive touched in a gunstore needed plastic pellets or electric batteries to use.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
Jimmy, I agree. Sort of.
There are times one can't reasonably avoid having a gun indoors and in that situation a person must choose the SAFEST possible direction. A concrete wall 10 yards away or a drywall and frame ceiling is acceptable in that case IMO. Neither is perfect, but both greatly reduce the chance of someone receiving a fatal wound in the case of a ND.
Sometimes "the bullet is going to hit a couple things losing energy and hopefully mass before it hits a living thing" is the best you can do.
I think the rule is better phrased as TREAT all guns as though loaded. Dry firing is fine, but you should dryfire in a "safe" direction. I dry-fire into a refrigerator. The bullet may come back at me, but it probably isn;t leaving the house. Pax's definition of a safe direction isn't feasible IMO. Most of the outdoor ranges I have ever gone to are not safe according to her strict interpretation. Almost all of them have rocks of some size visible in the embankment. Many have steel or concrete somewhere around the target. If thousands of rounds of FMG have been put into a concentrated area of the bank, it is hard to imagine there isn't a decent sized chunk of copper in there somewhere.
There are times one can't reasonably avoid having a gun indoors and in that situation a person must choose the SAFEST possible direction. A concrete wall 10 yards away or a drywall and frame ceiling is acceptable in that case IMO. Neither is perfect, but both greatly reduce the chance of someone receiving a fatal wound in the case of a ND.
Sometimes "the bullet is going to hit a couple things losing energy and hopefully mass before it hits a living thing" is the best you can do.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Nope.
The rule is All Guns Are Always Loaded.
Dry fire practice, cleaning and gun shops are irrelevant.
Naturally, we know that it's possible to unload a gun. That unloaded gun is still handled as a loaded gun because All Guns Are Always Loaded. You still don't dry fire while pointing it at your spouse. You still don't sweep every one in Gander Mountain. You still DO point it in a safe direction when cleaning unless the gun is disassembled, in which case it's not a gun anymore. If it were, it would still be loaded.
Reducing the RULE to "treating" a gun "as if" it were loaded turns it into a little wink and nod game we play. It's not REALLY loaded, I'm just supposed to pretend it is. I know its not, so I can do this! BOOM! Oh crap! It WAS loaded.
Accidents almost always happen with "unloaded" guns that were being treated as unloaded, safe guns that were in fact loaded and not safe. We don't "treat" guns as anything.
All Guns Are Always Loaded. No room for games. No wink and a nod. The damn thing is loaded.
The rule is All Guns Are Always Loaded.
Dry fire practice, cleaning and gun shops are irrelevant.
Naturally, we know that it's possible to unload a gun. That unloaded gun is still handled as a loaded gun because All Guns Are Always Loaded. You still don't dry fire while pointing it at your spouse. You still don't sweep every one in Gander Mountain. You still DO point it in a safe direction when cleaning unless the gun is disassembled, in which case it's not a gun anymore. If it were, it would still be loaded.
Reducing the RULE to "treating" a gun "as if" it were loaded turns it into a little wink and nod game we play. It's not REALLY loaded, I'm just supposed to pretend it is. I know its not, so I can do this! BOOM! Oh crap! It WAS loaded.
Accidents almost always happen with "unloaded" guns that were being treated as unloaded, safe guns that were in fact loaded and not safe. We don't "treat" guns as anything.
All Guns Are Always Loaded. No room for games. No wink and a nod. The damn thing is loaded.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
That's Cooper's rule. Unfortunately, that is NOT the NRA's rule, and it's why I don't like the NRA rules. As an NRA certified instructor, when I'm teaching the NRA's course I have to teach their rules, but any time I'm not operating under their banner I revert to Cooper's four rules.Brian Pfleuger said:
The NRA's three primary rule are (pay attention to #3):
As a 1911 guy, the text of #3 is particularly grating because, with a 1911, once you engage the safety you CAN'T RACK THE SLIDE. But NRA rule #3 does NOT say that all guns are always loaded -- it takes the opposite approach and says to keep guns unloaded until ready to use. (Whatever that means.)
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fingers....
Not having your index finger on the firearm trigger is a important point.
Many new gun owners or service members tend to slip the finger on the trigger even when the weapon is not downrange or facing a threat.
Taurus USA really got it right when they put a slight pad on the frame to rest your trigger finger. More gun firms should take note of this simple design.
Human beings often use muscle memory and are put at ease by feeling or seeing something they know.
Not having your index finger on the firearm trigger is a important point.
Many new gun owners or service members tend to slip the finger on the trigger even when the weapon is not downrange or facing a threat.
Taurus USA really got it right when they put a slight pad on the frame to rest your trigger finger. More gun firms should take note of this simple design.
Human beings often use muscle memory and are put at ease by feeling or seeing something they know.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Aquila, I would guess that circumstances like a 1911 are why they included "if possible" regarding the engaging the safety.
I have no use for the NRAs 3+10 system. Folks have enough trouble remembering 4 simple rules, 13 is ridiculous. I also feel like the wording makes them sound a lot less serious than they should be.
There are plenty of safe directions that don't include gun ranges. At my own house, for example, if I know my family is in the front I can point the gun toward the back of the house. There's a berm back there and it would have to go through 5 or 6 walls to get there. I can point it down, depending on where I am, there may or may not be anything but wood/dirt below me. Besides that, it only takes about 2 seconds to remove the bolt/slide, it's not a gun anymore and I can handle it like any other block of metal/wood.
The 4 Rules are why I despise gun shows. They're the only place I know where the rules seem to be suspended out of shear convenience. I believe every gun at a show should have its bolt removed or chamber flags used. I think the nonchalance at gun shows at least partially stems from the "wink and nod" attitude that comes from pretending that we're handling a gun "as if" it's loaded. What's the harm?! We all know it's not really loaded. We're just supposed to treat it "as if" it's loaded. But that would be very inconvenient at a gun show so, since we know we were only pretending anyway, we just disregard that rule.
I have no use for the NRAs 3+10 system. Folks have enough trouble remembering 4 simple rules, 13 is ridiculous. I also feel like the wording makes them sound a lot less serious than they should be.
There are plenty of safe directions that don't include gun ranges. At my own house, for example, if I know my family is in the front I can point the gun toward the back of the house. There's a berm back there and it would have to go through 5 or 6 walls to get there. I can point it down, depending on where I am, there may or may not be anything but wood/dirt below me. Besides that, it only takes about 2 seconds to remove the bolt/slide, it's not a gun anymore and I can handle it like any other block of metal/wood.
The 4 Rules are why I despise gun shows. They're the only place I know where the rules seem to be suspended out of shear convenience. I believe every gun at a show should have its bolt removed or chamber flags used. I think the nonchalance at gun shows at least partially stems from the "wink and nod" attitude that comes from pretending that we're handling a gun "as if" it's loaded. What's the harm?! We all know it's not really loaded. We're just supposed to treat it "as if" it's loaded. But that would be very inconvenient at a gun show so, since we know we were only pretending anyway, we just disregard that rule.
In one of Mas Ayoob's training videos, he talks about filling a large cooking pot with sand, and then placing a cactus in it for decoration. The sand-filled pot makes a backstop for dry-fire, loading/unloading, etc, but just looks like a potted cactus.
IE, we can use our imaginations and come up with ways to create safe directions.
IE, we can use our imaginations and come up with ways to create safe directions.