Gun safety instructor shoots student

This really bothers me.

I don't mean to sound like an anti gun guy here but if all these folks with LOTS and LOTS of experience have these problems what chance does the average Joe (me) have of NOT having an accident?

Not having a accident is easy.. Follow all common sense safety precautions. Obviously this guy didn't and should be banned from all future class instruction as a professional. IMO Accidents can happen as in out hunting or something, but a controlled environment like a classroom isn't one of them. Especially a gun safety course.
I was surprised that a newsletter I got from buckeye firearms today had no mention about this incident?
As for treating all guns as if they are loaded, is easy for me because mine are.
 
I think there are enough rules, but not everybody understands fully enough where each rule came from and what it means. For example, I never was comfortable with quoting the rule "always keep it pointed in a safe direction" without going into details like the fact that no matter where you are, there are people who will walk right in front of it and it's your responsibility not to let it get pointed at them. What is a "safe direction"? Up? Down? Left? Right? Depends a lot on where you are, doesn't it? Not everybody just takes to gun safety naturally. Most are capable of figuring it out, if their instructor gives them enough to work with.
 
Please let that be the last firearms instructing that 76-yr-old ever does... Reminds me of when my 87-yr-old father lurched his Buick forward (instead of the intended reverse) into his woodshop. He stopped all driving after that and I breathed a lot easier.

You have assumed without any other evidence that the cause of the problem was age-related. Why not blame it on the fact that the guy was male? After all, these things seem to happen more with males than females, right? :rolleyes:

In 2010, the NRA instructor that shot a student in Florida was just 32 years of age.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...n-safety-nra-church-s-communications-director

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This incident happened here in Texas. The age and sex of the instructor are not stated, however.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/28/glenn-geddie-texas-school-employee-shot_n_2781762.html

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Another incident in Texas where one instructor shot another one multiple times, not from an ND, but failure to follow basic range safety rules.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=506714&highlight=tdsa

The shooter is/was not anywhere near retirement of mental senility.

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http://www.wbal.com/article/98600/2/template-story/Officer-Indicted-In-Trainee-Shooting

46 year old instructor Kern shot a cadet in the head in Maryland
 
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SDC said:
In this case, a police trainer forgot that he had swapped out his red "training" Glock for a live pistol, and fired a shot into a neighboring classroom.
I am officially color-deficient, and even I can tell the difference between red and black.
 
Brian Pfleuger said:
So, the obviousness of Rule #1 wasn't enough so we made 2, 3 and 4.

Those rules aren't enough, so we want to make more.

Why do we think THOSE rules are enough? You already can't possibly shoot someone without violating AT LEAST THREE rules. What good is the 5th, 6th, 7th?
You are right, of course, but there are classes, and then there are classes. I don't teach advanced tactical shootouts with bad guys at Thunder Ranch, I teach mostly NRA Basic Pistol, to people who are just setting out to get a carry license. Some may have shot before (usually a rifle rather than a handgun, but most have not shot before. many have never even held a gun before.

Of course, the NRA doesn't teach Cooper's four rules, the NRA teaches the NRA's three rules, plus ten (or so) sub-rules. But ... I'm teaching the NRA's course so I teach the NRA's rules. Either way, though, by the time you get past Rule #2 you can see that you've already lost some of the class. It isn't that they aren't listening, and it isn't that they aren't trying ... it's just that they don't really "get it" at a core level. And one class isn't likely to fully hammer it into their heads.

IMHO the worst of the worst are the young studs who just got out of the military and think they know everything. If there's anyone in a class whose going to have a live 9mm or .45 ACP round in his pocket, and just HAS to try it in a gun you pass around, it's going to be one of these hot-shots. THEY know how to shoot, so the rules don't apply to them. They aren't there to learn, they're only there to get their piece of paper so they can take it to the state and apply for the license.

It warms the cockles of my black l'il heart when one of these clowns comes with his significant other, who has never held a handgun (or any gun) before, and she outshoots him on the live fire portion of the class.

But ... I digress. I suppose I'm being illogical, but I don't see a "NO AMMO IN THE CLASSROOM" rule as being "another" rule. It's not one that needs to be remembered and practiced by the students every day. It's a one-time rule that the instructor remembers FOR the students, and promulgates through course announcements, signs at the door, and an announcement at the beginning of the class. (And, yes, even after all that, there will inevitably be that one clown who keeps his live round and can't resist seeing how it fits in the gun that's being passed around.)

Back to my basic point (before I lose sight of it forever): The four rules (or the NRA's 3+10 rules) are enough, IF the student can remember them and grasp them. That's actually asking a lot from people who are new to guns, and are somewhat intimidated by just being in a room in close proximity to guns. So we (as instructors, or coaches, or whatever) need to remember that rookies ARE rookies, that they DON'T know the rules cold, and that they need coaching to ease them into feeling comfortable with handling guns while remembering the four rules.
 
One point that most have overlooked -- the bullet ricocheted off a desk before striking the student. That perhaps means the instructor thought the muzzle was pointed in a safe direction. We don't have enough information to determine this. That doesn't excuse his negligence but maybe mitigates it just a little.
 
As I indicated in my other post, the guy who shot the student demonstrated fundamentally poor gun handling THROUGHOUT the course when I took it. Even if it was deliberately pointed at the desk, the room is laid out such that he was still standing in front of the students, aiming in their general direction.

Re his age, I think it's only relevant in that in his course he displayed an attitude and corresponding gun handling skills that indicted to me he'd become too cavalier about safety, having been around guns a long time. That, combined with his "look at me" demeanor made this almost inevitable, in my opinion.
 
Re his age, I think it's only relevant in that in his course he displayed an attitude and corresponding gun handling skills that indicted to me he'd become too cavalier about safety, having been around guns a long time. That, combined with his "look at me" demeanor made this almost inevitable, in my opinion.

These behaviors are not age-specific or age-determined.
 
IMHO the worst of the worst are the young studs who just got out of the military and think they know everything.
I find this attitude common to almost all individuals who received minimal firearms training from any level of government. Age irrelevant.
It should be noted this guys supposed credentials include:
Various NRA certifications
Police training for at least several agencies including SWAT
Consultant for Ohio Supreme Court Security
Retired Police officer
Current Sheriff

By several accounts this instructor was careless and cavalier.

NRA Basic pistol course was not designed to train for CCW. I think if it is going to be the standard it needs revision. Of course, this guy was OPOTA certified. He was teaching the 12 hour NRA course and not the 20 hour OPOTA, but he did have the OPOTA cert.
 
Age doesn't necessarily breed or correlate with over-familiarity and/or carelessness, but incident-free experience (enough of which becomes a proxy for age) combined with the wrong attitude, can. He enjoyed the former up until last weekend, and had the latter in spades.
 
All guns are always loaded. Period.

That really ought to be the only rule we need, right?
Amen!
First rule when taking possession of a firearm is to do a safety check while pointed in a safe direction!

Every single time, no matter what!

The very first thing I learned about a gun before it was placed in my hand.

These behaviors are not age-specific or age-determined.
Agree. With age comes forgetfulness for many, as well as complacency.

My shop teacher (Many moons ago) made a statement that remains with me until this day:
" Accidents don't happen, they are made!".

Repitition overrides complacency. If you safety check a weapon even when you know it isn't loaded, you are doing the right thing.;)
 
It's just human nature, we are fallible. You can take all the safety precautions you want but you will not completely eliminate accidents like this. In fact, the more you insist on training, classes, etc, the more you increase the frequency of risk, after that it's just a matter of time and sooner or later human nature will prove out.

I am not saying that you don't do all you can within reason, but I am saying is that although every ND is preventable, you can't prevent all NDs.
 
don't rush....

The big thing to remember is; don't rush.
Weapons and live rounds can be extremely dangerous.
Take it slow and use caution in class environments.
Veteran instructors or cadre shouldn't be hassled or annoyed either.
If a firearm instructor is lax or "too cool for school" then a AD will occur.

If you are new to TFL or weapons see the Lee Childs incident online. Childs was a DEA special agent giving a lecture to young kids about guns when he shot himself with a loaded Glock .40S&W. He did a inspection too of the firearm then discharged it.
 
IIRC, (Edit: Paige - thanks Tom Servo - Lee Child is the Jack Reacher author) cycled the slide to eject the chambered round prior to removing the loaded magazine.

He did this with other agents looking on. It was recorded. I am not sure how they all failed to notice this.

I also do not know why they (or the instructor in the OP) brought live ammo into a classroom....
 
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He did a inspection too of the firearm then discharged it.
Actually, his name is Lee Paige. He didn't inspect his firearm, and that's the problem. The pertinent questions:

  • Why did he bring a live firearm into the room if he was planning to manipulate it?
  • Why did he trust someone else to clear it, instead of doing so himself?
  • Why didn't he notice that the magazine was inserted, or that the gun was awfully heavy to have been "empty?"
  • Why did he pull the trigger?

Again, the only feasible answer is complacency. It can get us maimed, killed, or tied up in very expensive litigation.
 
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MeGD7r6s-zU&desktop_uri=/watch?v=MeGD7r6s-zU

video of DEA agent;

He pulls the slide back off-camera, then walks back into camera view with slide locked back. He releases the slide with the magazine still in the well...

Simply amazing. I guess he's the ONLY one professional enough in the room to shoot himself in foot and continue teaching the class.
I would have left too when he tried to bring out the next one.
Great safety demo on what NOT to do!
 
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so if you were in that hunter safety class, and ended up shooting your future hunting buddy, could you claim "but it was part of the course material"
 
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