Gun rights and Democratic rule cannot coexsist

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But I'm still right.
I'm sure in your mind, you are. Compared to the reality of the situation however, that means nothing. The fact still stands that a disarmed populace ruled by a governmennt that is armed to the teeth is the foundation for authoritarian rule, disregard of human and individual rights and a culture that is fear-based rather than freedom based.
It seems they believe that's what will make the nation safer. They may be wrong but that doesn't mean they're evil.
It will make the nation safer for the ruling politicians, not the defenseless citizens. All you have to do is take a look at the United Kingdom for verification of that. Crime is up 400% across the board since the socialist government there instituted its gun ban to make England "safer."
They may be wrong but that doesn't mean they're evil.
Ask any Jew who lived through the holocaust whether or not gun control - and those who advocate it- are evil.
Ask any survivor of Pol Pot's killing fields whether or not gun control is evil.
Ask any survivor of Idi Amin's savage regieme whether or not gun control is evil.
Ask any survivor of Communist China's so-called "cultural revolution" if gun control is evil.
Ask any citizen of Iraq who survived the years of brutality under Hussein and his psychotic sons if gun control is evil.
Ask the homeless, brutalized survivors of the genocide in Darfur if gun control is evil.

Am I getting through to you yet??

"Gun control" is an extremely destructive policy. It helped clear the way for Nazi ascendancy in Germany. As a result, 13,000,000 people were murdered; 2700/day, each day that the Nazis were in power (30 January 1933 - 7 May 1945). In the 12 member countries of the European Union, it would take about 400 years for that number of people to be murdered, assuming that Europeans were as inclined to commit murder as are a tiny minority of Americans, and if they did nothing to restrain the murders. -Aaron Zelman, JPFO founder
 
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I'm sure in your mind, you are. Compared to the reality of the situation however, that means nothing. The fact still stands that a disarmed populace ruled by a governmennt that is armed to the teeth is the foundation for authoritarian rule, disregard of human and individual rights and a culture that is fear-based rather than freedom based.
I'm right in the mind of anyone with an understanding of the english language. The definition of "police state" does not require disarmament of the populace. It may be the foundation for authoritarian rule but it is not mutually inclusive to authoritarian rule.

It will make the nation safer for the ruling politicians, not the defenseless citizens.

That is what you believe; they seem to disagree. Once again, look at Japan.

All you have to do is take a look at the United Kingdom for verification of that. Crime is up 400% across the board since the socialist government there instituted its gun ban to make England "safer."
400%? Cite your source.

Ask any Jew who lived through the holocaust whether or not gun control - and those who advocate it- are evil.
Ask any survivor of Pol Pot's killing fields whether or not gun control is evil.
Ask any survivor of Idi Amin's savage regieme whether or not gun control is evil.
Ask any survivor of Communist China's so-called "cultural revolution" if gun control is evil.
Ask any citizen of Iraq who survived the years of brutality under Hussein and his psychotic sons if gun control is evil.
Ask the homeless, brutalized survivors of the genocide in Darfur if gun control is evil.

Am I getting through to you yet??
Actually I do know a number of Democrat Jews that lived through the Holocaust and are very supportive of strict gun control. Thanks for invoking Godwin's Law so no one else had to.

Once again, you're making unfounded leaps. Just because you may not agree with the way a group of people want to make the nation a safer place does not mean that they want to rule you with an iron fist.
 
I think gun-banners are well meaning fools, not power zealots. Steelheart says they are only interested in totalitarian power, but can't seem to begin to demonstrate his point, no matter how many times asked.

There have been many periods of foolish legislation in the US that were all about trying to do "good" but were ultimately foolish and short sighted. Gun control is no different than Prohibition or the war on drugs - an exercise in well meaning futility by those who feel they can legislate behavior.

Gun control is bad. Gee, ya think? I think that one is covered.


But I don't know why anyone would want to actually give Feinstein and company credit for actually having ANY long term goals or aspirations. These type of politicians live for quick and easy tag lines and the kind of rabble rousing that makes for good re-election coverage. This evil take-over conspiracy stuff is plain silly when you consider the fools involved.

Let's be realistic. Gun control in the US is not a preparation for anything, it is another social bandaid designed to placate a short sighted public. It is effective because too many liberals also think like Steelheart and see Conservative conspiracies behind every bush and tree.
 
A global economy and a global government are two very distinct things. A global economy is absolutely essential; the United States is incapable of surviving on its' own just as is any other nation. Economic isolationism would ruin our standard of living and stifle both industrial innovation and scientific discovery.

But I can't think of any damning evidence to suggest that there's a conspiracy to put us under one world government...unless you mean that our government is actively trying top dominate countries around the world to create some kind of American Empire. That's a bit more plausible but, to be honest, still pretty unlikely.
 
But I can't think of any damning evidence to suggest that there's a conspiracy to put us under one world government.


I can think of 2 institutions which the US is subject to which may qualify as "evidence".

1. World Trade Organization

2. World Court in the Hague.

While I'm not a "black helicopter" guy, the charters of these organizations is a little unsettling.
 
A global economy and a global government are two very distinct things. A global economy is absolutely essential; the United States is incapable of surviving on its' own just as is any other nation. Economic isolationism would ruin our standard of living and stifle both industrial innovation and scientific discovery.

While capitalism is a wide occurance; it is not necessarily a component, in and of itself, of democracy. It predates the concept of electing leaders by a wide margin and probably began near the time of language development and agrarian society. If anything; democracy is spawned of capitalism, not the other way around.

China is a participant in capitalism as a single entity (state participant as opposed to individual investors - however they are opening those restrictions to foreign investors and "special" citizens within their boarders.) Trade or die for them. They are exceptional in their ability to manipulate the markets through policy.

So certain powers that be aren't pushing for a one world government? They already have the economy that way.

I don't know who "they" are, but the global economy has existed since the notion of global has existed.
 
Police state government: "Hard" vs. "Soft"

The definition of "police state" does not require disarmament of the populace. It may be the foundation for authoritarian rule but it is not mutually inclusive to authoritarian rule.
And that's where we disagree. A disarmed citizenry that is controlled by a government that is armed to the teeth is in fact a police state.

Some may not be as repressive as others - For example, Japan is not as repressive as was Sadaam Hussein's police state. However - in Japan, the citizenry is disarmed and the police have sweeping and intrusive powers that they do not have in the U.S.

In Japan, the police stop people on the street, frisk them and go through their bags in the name of 'safety." They conduct twice yearly "home safety inspections" where they dig through the closets and drawers of the homeowner. The citizens of Japan have no Fourth Amendment guarantees and no privacy from the government.

Japanese courts have a 98% conviction rate. The methods used to secure such a high conviction rate include witness tampering by the state, perjury by the prosecution and its witnesses, intimidation and thereatening of the accused, and beating a confession out of the accused, when it is deemed in the interest of the state.

Guns are outlawed in Japan, however are available on the black markket there. Knives have replaced guns as the primary weapon of the criminal element and the primary weapon of violence. While it is not widely known outside of Japan, knife attacks and robberies are frequent on the streets. Outlawing guns did not banish crime in Japan - it merely forced a change in weapons and tactics.

Maybe the Japanese people don't mind living under such a system - maybe they even like it. But the fact remains that with a disarmed citizenry, a government with sweeping police powers, a court system that will use any means necessary - including physical beatings of suspects to secure a confession - the Japanese people live under a form of police state government, even though they still have elections.

Some have categorized police state government as either "Hard" or "Soft". Those commentators have also pointed out that the United States, on its current path, is headed toward becoming a "Soft" police state. Some would categorize Hussein's Iraq as a "Hard" police state, and Japan's system as a "Soft" police state.

There are degrees of police state governance - not all are like the former Soviet Union, but with a disarmed citizenry, sweeping police powers that trample the rights of the people, a corrupt and opressive court system, they are police states nonetheless.

"Hard" or "Soft," I am opposed to police state government here in the United States - or anywhere else. I believe that people have the right to live their lives without having a power hungry government smothering them with laws that leave them defenseless.

Those who laugh now will have their eyes opened if it comes to pass here. Once it is too late, then they will wake up.
 
Hellooooooooooo!! *knockknockknockknockknock*

But I can't think of any damning evidence to suggest that there's a conspiracy to put us under one world government.
Ever heard of the United Nations??

Neverending quest for more and more power, more and more money, less and less accountability while eyeball deep in their own corruption and incompetence?

Pushing internatioinal treaties to outlaw citizen possession of any and all guns and to confiscate same on a global scale??

Big statue outside their headquarters in New York of a revolver with the barrel tied in a knot?

Wants global police power with all nations submitting to its rule??

Sound familiar??
 
And that's where we disagree. A disarmed citizenry that is controlled by a government that is armed to the teeth is in fact a police state.
You continue to argue the wrong point. A police state does not preclude a democratic government. None of what you said about Japan changes the fact that they have a democratic government supported by a capitalist economy. Police state or not, they are not oppressed because they have chosen to live under those laws.

Also, a little proof to your claim about the corruption of the Japanese courts would be nice.

Ever heard of the United Nations??
When was the last time the UN directly affected your life and the lives of all other Americans? When was the last time the US was kept from invading a sovereign nation by the UN?
 
A global economy and a global government are two very distinct things. A global economy is absolutely essential; the United States is incapable of surviving on its' own just as is any other nation. Economic isolationism would ruin our standard of living and stifle both industrial innovation and scientific discovery.

But I can't think of any damning evidence to suggest that there's a conspiracy to put us under one world government...unless you mean that our government is actively trying top dominate countries around the world to create some kind of American Empire. That's a bit more plausible but, to be honest, still pretty unlikely.

What the hell are you talking about Redworm? A global economy is not absolutley essential, and the U.S. is very capable of surviving on it's own, we are the super power we are today because pre WW2 we survived on our own.

Your using opinion when you say that Redworm, it isn't fact. The U.S. is fully capable of surving on it's own, and if had done just that we wouldn't have this dependency on foriegn oil. No one is talking about isolationism, I'm talking about when I call tech support for something I don't get someone in India.

Also, I don't buy your BS about the US trying to dominate countries around the world. This country bends over backwards when it's needed. We could easily start occupying other nations, take the oil we need, but we dont.

Lastly, a global economy is very much a step into the direction of global government. Want proof? Read the "United Nations Reform Act of 2005".
 
Actually, if we discontinued world trade right now we would have the worst depression ever, and have no fuel in just a few months.

Like it or not, the US relies heavily on foreign trade because we are no longer self sufficient, and haven't been since before WWII. We imported oil back then, too.

Wave the "superpower" flag all you want. That and 50 cents will get you coffee.
 
And Handy, thats my whole point. We put ourselves in that position for it. It dosen't have to be that. We once had factories that made cloths and sneakers.
 
Characteristics of a Police State

There are three types of Police States:

1: Traditional Police State (Example - Prussia). A product of the enlightenment whose goal was the moral, physical and intellectual improvement of the populace and the military security of the state.

2: Totalitarian Police State (Examples - Nazi Germany, Soviet Union). Monolithic institutions under a monolithic party and an ideal so powerful that every individual must bow to it - body, mind and soul - or be disposed of.

3: Modern Authoritarian Police State (Examples - draw your own conclusions). This state is modern in that it encompasses manipulation of the mass media, mass education, political parties, and theories of democracy. It is traditional in that the state's aims are considered to supercede the rights and liberties of the individual. But it is not, at first, tyrannical. The Modern Authoritarian Police state may apperar to be democratic in form - holding elections and having a legislature. But within the traditional forms, its nature and power have shifted.

Typically:
-The executive branch comes to dominate the nation.
-Enforcement and rule-making agencies proliferate, independent of any elected body.
-A tamed electorate lets the government have its way.
-Individual or small group opposition is crushed.
-Public opinion is molded via mass education, mass media, and propaganda.
-Public policy, though it may be voted on in the legislature, is largely made by bureaucrats or other "insiders" - careerists who are not answerable either to public opinion or to votes.
-Gradually in this state, local police are brought under the umbrella of the central authority. Instead of answering to the citizens of cities, counties, provinces, or states, the police are subsidized, regulated, trained, equipped by and ultimately loyal to the central government.

Because we have come to associate the term "Police State" mainly with totalitarian terrorist police states like Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, we may overlook an Authoritarian Police State developing under our own eyes.

In action, a Police State:

1: Indoctrinates citizens early to submit and obey; values uniformity and considers people to be "resources."

2: Enlarges its power by creating programs in the name of health, welfare and safety. In the end, the state itself is the chief beneficiary, while individuals are deprived of choice, prosperity and independence.

3: Is driven constantly by crises, wars or crusades.

4: Has numerous laws, arbitrairly enforced. "Everything not forbidden is compulsory."

5: Has a court system that becomes a tool of the state's will, rather than an instrument for justice.

6: Fears privacy. What it can't see, it can't control, so it demands to see everything - via electronic surveillance, human informers and extensive means of tracking individual lives and business activity.

7: Uses lies, secrets, and manipulation of language to ensure that the populace thinks as the government wishes.

8: Becomes increasingly ruthless as it fails to produce the perfect, orderly society it demands.

9: Out of fear of distrust of the people, it enforces a monopoly on the means of armed combat.




Conclusion:
We maintain that an Authoritarian Police State is in the process of developing in America (and other English speaking nations).

Source: The State vs. The People - the rise of the American police state, by Claire Wolfe and Aaron Zelman, 2001, Mazel Freedom Press.

Steelheart says they are only interested in totalitarian power, but can't seem to begin to demonstrate his point, no matter how many times asked.
I just did, Handy.

As for you Redworm, you are hell-bent that you are right. If so, you should have no problem listing several police states that meet the criteria and actions listed above yet allow their citizens to keep and bear arms.

I look forward to reading your list.
 
What the hell are you talking about Redworm? A global economy is not absolutley essential, and the U.S. is very capable of surviving on it's own, we are the super power we are today because pre WW2 we survived on our own.
How many products are exported by the US that are not imported in greater volumes? Isolationism worked fine pre-WW2 when travel and communication were far more limited than they are today. In today's world the US would crumble without participating in the global economy.
Your using opinion when you say that Redworm, it isn't fact. The U.S. is fully capable of surving on it's own, and if had done just that we wouldn't have this dependency on foriegn oil. No one is talking about isolationism, I'm talking about when I call tech support for something I don't get someone in India.
You're also missing my point. Dell moving its' tech support to India is Dell's right. And no, the US is not capable of surviving on its' own. We import one and a half trillion worth of crap every year including many items that are pretty much essential for our modern standard of living. Where do you think the majority of the components in the computer you're using came from?


Also, I don't buy your BS about the US trying to dominate countries around the world. This country bends over backwards when it's needed. We could easily start occupying other nations, take the oil we need, but we dont.
No need to buy what I'm not selling. "Spreading democracy" is no more or less an act of pushing a "global government" than anything the UN is doing.

Lastly, a global economy is very much a step into the direction of global government. Want proof? Read the "United Nations Reform Act of 2005".
A step in the direction does not equate to a necessary event. Just because we have a global economy does not mean that a global government is inevitable.
 
As for you Redworm, you are hell-bent that you are right. If so, you should have no problem listing several police states that meet the criteria and actions listed above yet allow their citizens to keep and bear arms.

I did not state that there exist nations which are called police states yet allow their citizens to be armed. But as I have pointed out repeatedly in my example with Japan, there are nations that are considered police states yet are still governed via elected, representative democracy.

None of that stuff you posted has anything to do with what I'm saying to you. Nor does it in any way prove that your conspiracy theory about the evil democrats is remotely concrete.
 
You said in post #62:
The definition of "police state" does not require disarmament of the populace.
According to Wolfe and Zelman - who should know - it does. See point #9 in my post (#75) where I quote from their book.

That is the point I have been trying to get across to you - a police state does disarm its citizens; it is one of the defining features of a police state.
 
We put ourselves in that position for it. It dosen't have to be that. We once had factories that made cloths and sneakers.
But not oil. If we went with coal and nuclear powered mass transit, that's about the only way we could have remained self sufficient.

And we wouldn't be as rich as we are now if we had done that.
 
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