Gun lubricants - again

I can only base my opinion from what I've seen and experienced. If, say, EEZOX doesn't 'bond' to the metal and give any added protection, Then how come other oils bead up when applied to the EEZOX-treated metal (blued in this case), and continued to do so after a cleaning with Sweet's solvent? I tend to believe what I see with my own eyes, and I've seen the improvement more than once. Besides, we aren't talking car treatments here....but if we were:

If it's a given that synthetics are better than the natural oils, then why is it so hard to accept that one synthetic is better than another for a specific purpose?

Last, I hate to disabuse your faith in the teflon enriched stuff, but anyone who has used it can tell you that it is only as good as its carrier oil. The teflon, if not balled up in the bottom of your bottle and completely useless, is NOT aiding in the lubrication of your weapon past first shot---the only thing left is the carrier oil.Remember, the teflon is not bonding to the metal, and will move away from the bearing surfaces like a greased marble pinched between two fingers. In fact, the teflon particles tend to lump up in out-of-the-way nooks and crannies of your weapon and help to form crud deposits that can cause malfs. Remember also that most auto manufacturers recommended discontinuing teflon treatments due to particles clogging up everything, including the filters. Same thing happens with firearms.
 
Eezox is a good product. Based on their description (ie. synthetic, not petroleum based; creates a dry thin-film; repels water and oils) it must be a silcone based lubricant (e.g. silicone, siloxanes, polyorganosiloxanes). Now these products, as you have experienced, are SUPERB at corrosion resistance. They are also excellent lubricants AT TEMPERATURE AND PRESSURE EXTREMES. At room temperature, mineral oils and particularly synthetics are better lubricants. In addition, silicone based lubricants have poor surface tension and adsorption - meaning that under heavy friction, they rub off and no longer provide good lubrication. If you later decide to discontinue use, silicone based lubricants tend to interfere with your new oil, and they are difficult to remove with other chemicals (I hope you like it). In principle, if you value corrosion resistance a lot and lubrication a little less, Eezox is your best bet.

Now regarding teflon, under extreme temperature and pressure, yes - teflon will do some nasty stuff like evaporate and create bad fumes, and also clump up. Now, on your handguns/rifles I don't think you get extreme temperatures and pressures. As you note, it is very important for dispersion that the teflon is shaken before application. The fact that it can settle is not problematic in and of itself.

In addition, as the parts move around, the teflon will tend to move around and may not be as effective if it is dry (it is better with a good carrier lubricant). Finally, if you clean relatively frequently I don't think there is any major chance for clumping up or any other "engine-like" phenomenon. The reason teflon is bad when it clumps in an engine is primarily that it plugs the filter (very bad). Solids in the engine are also not a good thing.

Gun oils are not a scientific breakthrough area. Most of the "miracle gun oils" are old technology brought to a small, new market. You can bet that new technologies are going into the big markets first. Teflon, siloxanes, chlorinated paraffins, synthetic organics: they are ALL old technology packaged and marketed under flashy names. In addition, they all have unique problems in use with weapons (some which you don't know about). For example, chlorinated paraffins tend to create hydrochloric acid and eat away at the very metal it is supposed to protect - and some people think this stuff is great, and bake/blow dry them onto their weapons! Don't be impressed - pickup something your gunmaker recommends and lube away.
 
Curuzer/George:

I'm curious what you think regarding Sentry Solutions products. I have used their stuff for a couple of years and like the dry film (i.e. no oil on my clothes etc). They are a major PITA to apply but once set up have done the job for me. My guns usually run fine on this stuff once they have been repeat treated a couple of times. I am particularly interested in your opinions regarding their reported surface bonding to metals.

Very interesting and informed commentary, thank you gentlemen.

Regards,

Bob
 
KODB,

I am going to go out on a limb since I have never used Sentry Solutions and am not familiar with their chemistry. Their wording places a lot of emphasis on: dry-film, great rust protection, not silicone, can rub off under lots of shear. These are all properties of SILOXANES (which technically are NOT silicone, although they are related). Again, if rust protection and easy cleaning are your primary concerns, these are great products. I would just make sure to renew the coatings on the high friction areas regularly, since these products do rub off and do not "flow back" into the dry areas to replenish themselves (like oil). I may actually look into these and try them on one of my guns.

By the way, siloxanes will "bond" (more like stick to) most metalic materials (and I believe to the coatings too). This is a different mechanism than that claimed by other new age lubricants that will react only with ferric metals (iron/steel) directly.

Cruzer
 
My experience with using the Sentry products is pretty good. I run a couple of Sigs on it no problem. I had difficulty getting my wife's Beretta to run on it. I emailed Mike Mrozek and he indicated that firearms that have prev been lubricated with teflon containing products are more difficult to treat as the SmoothKote doesn't easily bond because of the teflon. I had used CLP w/teflon for years on that gun.

My Sig239 OTOH was Sentry'd right out of the box and required 3 repeated cycles of application, heating, and then shooting, then clean and reapply. After the 3rd application I have not had to reapply since. I've run around 5000 rounds through the gun since. I have touched up two small areas on the barrel with a qtip saturated with SmoothKote on 2 different occasions (took about 90 nanoseconds). My 228 which I bought used required 3 full cycles of application and then a subsequent full repeat after about 500 rounds, then none since (about 1000 rounds). I gave up on the Beretta and went back to oil.

I currently have 2 BHPs that I am in the process of applying/shooting. I'm on the 3rd full application with one gun running 100% and the other having an occasional stoppage. I suspect that after another application this will disappear.

I have a couple of bolt action rifles that I'm currently in the process of doing and will try to report back when I have results.

My sense is that these are good products IFFF you are willing to do the up front application and thorough degreasing that proper application requires. It is a PITA and timeconsuming initially, but it's awful nice now to go shoot an hour or two and basically run a brush down the barrel and shake off/brush off the rest for 2 min total cleaning and then back in the holster. Plus, no stains on my white dress shirts.

I'd be very interested in hearing how you make out Curuzer. Thanks for the information and once again for a very nicely presented discussion on lubricant properties.

Regards,

Bob
 
WHY NOT OIL

ANY oil, as opposed to grease, inherently attracts material - sand, dust, dirt, salt, copper buildup, etc. - you don't want that on or in your gun.

TW-25B lubricant protectant does an amazing job at repelling material. The US military has tested it and selected for quite a few weapons programs, and its used by quite a few firearm manufacturers.

Bestdefense.com sells it, as well as it's oil version under the Kleen-Bore label on the site.

MOBIL-1 is great for cars. Not small arms with very different performance requirements.
 
Curuzer and George, thank you both for your enlightened dialogue. The interesting thing about this subject is that some of us clean and lubricate our guns more than others following a round of shooting. For instance, when at the range, I shoot 300 rounds minimum at one sitting from any one gun (revolver or pistol except for the .454 Casull). Shooting that many rounds in one given time period tends to heat things up pretty well. I have been using a combination of Militech synthetic and 20 wt. motor oil in one to one concentration; and this only because an IPSC competitor and gunsmith friend recommended it. It seems to work very well. I usually remove the side plate of the revolvers after every other shooting session, thoroughly clean with WD-40 (I know, I know), and blow it dry with compressed air. Then I re-lube with the combo above and reassemble. It seems to have worked swimmingly and no malfs. What say you gentlemen regarding this regimen? More importantly, is there any harm in following it?
 
Drcohen,

I'll tell you one thing, what the gun industry needs are lubricant standards like the SAE has for cars. That way we keep wackos from making claims they cannot substantiate.



PKAY (or is it butter),

Why do you choose to mix 25w oil with your Militec? Interesting regimen. Any particularly important 25w oil brand?



[Edited by Curuzer on 02-28-2001 at 10:01 AM]
 
I've never seen a weapon fail because it was too clean. If a lube works for you, and you acknowledge any quirks in the product you use (I use Tetra grease at high friction points on top of the EEZOX over the whole gun), then go with what you want. For those who carry ALL THE TIME in all kinds of weather, a better corrosion protection package is more important than lubricity. A comp shooter who shoots a great deal indoors or in nice weather only may not need as much corrosion protection, but need greater lubricity.

Go with what fits your needs. Yeah, I love EEZOX. It cleans well, and since I started using it, no trunk gun has picked up a speck of rust. Corrosion protection is critical to me (a rusty gun is NOT a happy gun),so I go with what is best in that area. Some people just like the 'wet look', so they use greasy oils. Just look at what you need, then focus on products that fit that need. Try more than one.......you never know what you might find around the corner.
 
Curuzer, I think the mix has something to do with the heat generated after "n" number of rounds, but it could be my friend is "stretching" the Militech. Don't know. Anyway, it's cheap and it works. The Militech is expensive, $20 for a small bottle.

As for "is it butter," would margarine work as a gun lube? It's synthetic.
 
JiminCA,

Thanks for the link, good stuff. I would [minimally] disagree on only two points, first, unlike engines, guns are not continuously lubricated and their oil is not continuously filtered. As such, the lubricant used should have better initial adsorption so it hangs on better and maintains a good film as it is sheered by the slide going back and forth. Second, there are a ton of wackos trying to sell snake oil into this market - some of that snake oil is actually harmful to weapons. In principal, then, I think you and I agree that "keep it simple" should be the approach - use well accepted lubricants and stay away from the "new age" stuff from low/no reputation guys (particularly if their message is shrill).

PKAY, I am not a believer in using chlorinated paraffins (e.g. Militec) for lubrication. The automotive market has generally phased them out in favor of newer technologies. That is not to say that they are necessarily bad either. I am experimenting with synthetics and siloxanes, and generally believe that a good synthetic (perhaps with Teflon) is all it takes. Good luck.
 
JiminCA,

I was actually supercharged by your post and did some research on synthetics. Mobil 1 a polyalphaolefin synthetic (PAO), while Amsoil and Castrol are based on synthetic esters. Amsoil is THE original synthetic brand, Mobil 1 was the first PAO, while Castrol has done very well in developing their own proprietary synthetic esters.

Synthetic lubricant molecules can be designed to have polarity to bond with the base metal (so that they form the elusive thin film on metal and don't flow away). They also don't REACT with the metal and don't create nasty byproducts. They are superb lubricants compared to other chemistries out there.

There are a ton of studies done on the differences between polyalphaolefins and synthetic esters. In general, I believe there is a very tiny advantage in PAOs over synthetic esters, but not enough in my opinion to give one up over another.

Now, which should we use? First, if you are already using Mobil 1, Amsoil, Castrol, or another synthetic, and like it, DON'T CHANGE based on my comments. Second, there are some great GUN SPECIFIC products on the market that are synthetic (e.g. Castrol/Hoppes - syn-ester; Break-free - PAO). I like Castrol/Hoppes, but have not tried Break-free. I also like Castrol/Hoppes because it has a very good corrosion protectant (a napthalene sulfonate). Engine oils contain all sorts of stabilizers and additives which, in principle, don't harm your gun. If you like, I would recommend Mobil 1 because it uses PAO chemistry. Which viscosity? Heck if I know. Find a viscosity that stays put. Many people recommend a 15w-30. BTW, I wish Mobil1 would offer a gun specific product.

Finally, both Mobil 1 and Amsoil are producing synthetic ester/PAO blends in order to get the best of both worlds. I'm not ready to discuss whether these are any better than one or the other.

What about other lubricants out there? They may be good products. I would favor synthetic over petroleum based, and am not a proponent of any other new-fangled chemistries. Regarding siloxanes (Eezox? for example), I think they are superb anti-corrosives, and pretty good lubricants. Great stuff if you frequently leave your guns in storage for long periods of time.

PS: Hope this stuff is helpful, I have other things I could be doing :)

[Edited by Curuzer on 02-28-2001 at 11:13 AM]
 
Here is my two cents from my limited personal experience.
I use Castrol synthetic. I use it on my model 41 .22 and on my Kimber Custom Target. I shoot once per week 1-200 rounds. Some times its a couple of weeks between sessions.
I clean after about every 100-200 rounds. The Castrol synthetic stays put between range sessions while the gun is stored (after cleaning) and it stays put while I am shooting. I used to use hoppes oil and it would runn off the slide rails while the gun was stored for a couple of weeks necessitating a relube before shooting. Castrol or Mobil synthetic are tested on a wide range of metal aloys remember engines can have a block made out of aluminum alloy and a piston made from steel alloy. Engines have much closer tollerances than firearms and wider operating temperatures.

In my OPINION Grease of any kind is not a good firearm lubricant, it holds dirt and creates a grinding compound. You will note that grease is usually used in sealed assemblies, like wheel bearings, contamination with water or dirt require the replacement of the grease so the joint or bearing is not destroyed by the contaminant. I used grease on my glock 26 and it collected alot of lint and dirt while riding in a holster. I replace with Castrol and the problem is much less than it was.

Put some grease on you car door hinge or garagedoor track and check out all of the crap that gets attracted to it and stuck in it. Never use grease on a firearm.

Oil flows and contaminants are not held against the bearing surfaces.

JUST My opinion
 
OK, I am going to throw anothr lubricant into the fray. I use dextron type automatic transmission fluid. My guns are stainless and have had no problems at all. I know another shooter that uses STP oil additive mixed with graphite. Its his home brew. It is slicker than you know what.
 
update

From earlier in the thread I was relaying the in-progress work with using Sentry Solutions stuff with 2 BHPs. I have one still running 100% on the Sentry, but my wife's gun I have abandoned and am now using Mobil1 5W30 based on the above comments. The gun ran fine for me on the Sentry but she limpwrists ever so slightly and it was being problematic. With the Mobil 1 she's (both gun and wife) flawless. I suspect that the Sentry stuff is adequate but not phenomenal lubrication and that it makes the gun more sensitive to limpwristing induced failures.

The other BHP is now a few thousand rounds without a hiccup on Sentry stuff.

FWIW, more data points for all.

Cruzer: have you ever tried out the Sentry stuff?

Regards,

Bob
 
The Sentry line of lubricants are molybdenum disulfide, and provide almost no corrosion protection. Dri-Slide, a mil-spec dry lube which is also moly, contains rust inhibitors and is less expensive, although it doesn't dry quite as fast as Smooth-Kote. Dry lubricants do not attract dirt or dust like wet lubes, but they do not lubricate or protect as well, which is why Sentry recommends a grease for high wear areas, and a rust preventative where needed.
The thing with using motor oil is, they were designed to be used in a closed assembly i.e. an engine, so they attract dirt and debris like mad. No problem for a gun in the closet, but big trouble for a gun that is carried daily.If you are using motor oil on your carry gun, check it daily for excess dust/debris.
I have also heard that Mobil 1 and several other brands marketing "Full Synthetic" are not actually %100 synthetic. Apparantly there is a difference. Pennzoil markets a %100 synthetic oil which is just that. Diffrences between the two names "full" and "%100"?
Several new companies, like Mpro7, are marketing nothing more than a hospital grade machine oil as the end-all solution to all our lubricant needs.
The bottom line is any oil will work-it's not what you use, but how often you use it. I've got a whole box full of wonder lubes that I have tested over the last 5 years, and I cannot tell much difference between most of them as far as lubricity. Most notable is the fact that the majority of these new products do not protect well from corrosion. Break-Free CLP, which has been around for over twenty years, is the best do-all product, and rust preventative that I have ever tested. Another excellent product is Corrosion X, which is a better lubricant than Break-Free CLP, and almost as good at preventing rust.
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com (best price on Break-Free)
http://www.corrosionx.com
Russack Chemicals(Dri-Slide)
1-800-231-6901
 
Real world

Funny. You guys mention every recipe under the sun except the stuff that is getting spec'd in to a long list of US military weapons programs - TW25B - which is replacing the old incumbant, CLP - LSAT, whatever. find it, try it, you'll see... and none of those formulas prevents rust and saltwater corrosion like 25. They don't.
 
I can tell you without a doubt that CLP will never be replaced by MIL COMM TW-25B. It is spec'd on some weapons systems, most notably the GAU-2B/A(M134) GE minigun, but it will not be used by artillery, armor, or infantry for all weapons. Try punching tubes with TW-25B! CLP is a multi-purpose product, TW-25B is not. The U.S. Military uses many different lubricants, for different purposes. There are also different contractors. The main contractor for lubricants is Royal Lubricants(ROYCO), and has been since the Vietnam war. The military looks for a product that meets the needs at hand, and a company that can deliver it for the lowest price, i.e. "made by the lowest bidder."
 
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