Great poster from www.guntruths.com

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"You only need shock tactics when you don't have logic on your side."

Oh? And what do we call screaming for more gun control laws when a poorly raised kid brings in a stolen gun from his crackhead uncle and shoots someone?

what do we call this 13 kids a day BS?

what do we call this "42 times more likely..." BS?

or that damned "Bob hid his gun so well, it took his son 5 years to find it." ad I have to see in Men's Health every month. (Why the hell doesn't the NRA advertise in Men's Health???)

Oleg, while there might be a lot of vocal detractors, I'm sure there's a high lurk : post ratio, and your logic may be winning over the silent majority. hopefully.



[This message has been edited by TomMarker (edited June 06, 2000).]
 
I wasn't going to respond to this, but I just can't help myself. I'm the one that Oleg was quoting. I have never been involved in disagreeing with his arguments or ideas; instead, I took issue with this one very specific picture. What was the response? I was called a commie (which, as a completely meaninless insult I thought went out with shoulder pads), an idiot, a ninnie. The idea that I can use and understand logic was scoffed at. (Btw, when I talked about arguments needing shock to make up for lack of logic, ya'll thought "As opposed to those Million Bitches?"; what I meant was "Like the drug company that tries to get me to buy an unnecessary vaccine by putting out adds that have a picture of a crying teddy bear or duckie over misleading information.")

So what is it that makes me worthy only of insults and dismissal? That I am a feminist, certainly. That I am a woman, probably. But let me tell you something else that I am. I am a person who is staring to give some very serious thought to the issue of gun control. I am someone who is looking for intellegent discussion on both sides of the issue, so that I can begin to form my own opinions. And I'm begining to think that ya'll just don't want people like me on your side. Which is fine, I suppose -- I can come to my own conclusions in spite of you. But I fail to understand why you are so determined to alienate potential allies.
 
Please note that, given my counterproductive efforts at Ms. Forum, I am taking a vacation from annoying others. I did delete my snippy comment (not responsible for others being rude, though I wish they'd not get on people's nerves). I do think that image was relevant but it probably wasn't appropriate to the audience.

Sorry about that.

Oleg "contrite" Volk :(
 
Welcome to TFL, Aurora. I hope you stay around long enough to get a feel for how we are and not let one or two posts put you off. You are certainly not worthy of the insults you have received. Please allow us the chance to use facts and logic to make a case for our beliefs.

Alienating potential allies is not a good thing for either of our sides. If you stay around here long enough, you may see that we are the same kind of people. We have families that we love, we have children that we try to raise well, we worry about violence in the media and in the schools, we get upset about government waste, we wonder what happened to the old "morality," etc, etc.

Your appearance here is a good reminder to us that our words, even when "preaching to the choir," can distance potential allies. We have plenty of "feminists" and women here who have initiated intelligent discussions and have formed their own opinions regarding gun control and self-defense.

I hope you'll do the same.
 
Aurora, if it is a serious dialogue you want, simply say so. I will be more than happy to assist your research in any way I can. If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask.

I cannot understand how you could still be on the fence on this issue, but it isn't hard to find what is real and what is not. There are literally thousands of reports and studies supporting our claims, while the other side has nothing. Honestly, their research is so flawed that they don't dare post most of it for fear that they will be found out.

Again, if you wish to speak more on this issue, just drop me a line at jterpack@greenwood.net and we'll go from there. I'll help you until you don't want my help.

------------------
When Reason Fails.....
 
I was not going to say anything about this subject, but I was very disturbed by the fact that a tragedy of the magnitude of the Holocaust would be even used in conjunction with such a trivial and petty event as the MMM.

I thought that it was in very poor taste. Although I agree that gun-control was a relevant part of the scheme that ultimately lead to the "final solution", I think that the dignity of those who died in such a barbaric way should not be violated, even to defend our RKBA.

I resented that image being shown. I am unimpressed.

And when you add the dreadful and sadistic violation these women have undergone, on top of being lead to slaughter like cattle, you may agree that their souls, their memory and their images must be left in peace.

And I feel that anyone willing to use these martyrs' images for a cause -any cause- needs to consult his conscience. Or develop one.



[This message has been edited by 416Rigby (edited June 06, 2000).]
 
As a Second Amendment supporter, a gun owner, and the descendent of a family
exterminated in nazi concentration camps, I have to express the rage and
astonishment I felt and still feel when I saw your picture.
How dare you slap us all with such a compelling, meaningful picture and
connect it to a petty even like the million mom march?
I believe that, at the root of the impossibility of the millions of Jews
massacred in concentration camps, there was also the inaccessibility to
firearms. But I also deeply believe in the basic goodness and humanity of
our governors, authorities and civil servants. It took a murderous
government, an inhuman army, and the willing complacency of millions of
Germans in the 30's and 40's to carry out the holocaust. We still live in a
free land, governed by the good sense of people.
I applaud anyone's diligent effort to try to maintain our Second Amendment
rights intact. But I take offense and exception in a group of insensitive
individuals who will go to the extent of exploiting what is most meaningful
and important in the history of a people just to make a point.
You have no idea what the Holocaust means, or you would have not used it in
connection with gun control issues in the USA. You don't know the first
thing about it, or you would have not slapped in our faces images that bare
the meaning of devastation and tears and pain for millions and millions
around the world. You would not use the picture of a dead G.I. on the shore
of Normandy to prove that military green is a slimming color, would you?
Then take a moment to consider what it means to respect millions of people,
who died because of their last name, or the religion, or simply for their
facial features.
And tonight, when you go to sleep, ask yourselves if you have done anything
good to carry on the Second Amendment battle. Maybe my aunt, who died with
her son in Dachau, will appear in your dreams, to tell you that you did. But
I doubt it.
 
I wasn't going to comment on this as I normally agree with a majority of what Oleg has to say & show, but I found this particular item offensive and an inappropriate avenue to get our pro-gun message across -- that which doesn't unite us, divides us.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg Volk:
In this case, I might drop an email to the author of the poster (though I suspect other have already done so).[/quote]

Done.
 
I was also a target of Oleg's comments from 6/05 3:56, in which he said, "Maybe they are so starved for attention that they secretly wish to be in the pictures, by nook or by crook :D"

After regaining my composure, I proceeded to read on to see how the community would handle such a thing. Until this afternoon, I was singularly unimpressed. I find it inconceivable that no one takes issue with that statement, but several people have at least shown reason. I thank TheBluesMan, 416Rugby, italiano, and FUD particularly. You have done much to alter my image of this forum with your style and your respect. You have said many of the same things I said on my own forum to Oleg after the picture was posted; I am glad he has chosen to listen to you rather than call you Nazi sympathizers.

I will now go back to my position of listening and learning.
 
Aurora, Portia and other newcomers from Ms:
Welcome to The Firing Line. When this becomes a site for flame and unbridled emotion, it will have outlived its usefulness and we'll shut it down. Personally, I don't see that happening, as we have much to discuss...rationally.

Italiano-
I recognize your ire and emotion....just as I recognize Oleg's. However, none of us get to claim the high ground based on familial ties to a tragedy...or even a holocaust. Governments trampling citizen rights, torturing and mass murdering their citizens or those of other nations is an issue that affects each and every one of us. And they can never do so unless we first learn to identify with a subset of homo sapien.

Identification with our familial roots may be real important in areas such as religion, marriage, child rearing, death, morality, cooking and holidays. It has no place in rational political discussion, however.
Regards to all-
Rich Lucibella
 
The Truth can hurt.
The Truth is a painful teacher.
That poster while not PC or Popular is Truth in a very pure and unfiltered form.
The poster hurts because its true.
 
I think most of us are expressing very rational emotions. I also think it is very valid to cry out at the link of MMM and Holocaust: one is a few thousand women complaining about a matter they really don't care to learn or understand, while the other is the methodical and premeditated extermination of a race with the most cruel process possible. Please, Rich. Don't try to defend at all costs. I think it is lucidly clear that there are issues that are best treated with the respect they deserve, and not trivialized and mixed with hysterical demonstrations. You are entitled to your opinions, because this is STILL the USA, where the police will still die to defend your right to express yourself. It is not family ties that draw these emotions out of me, but simply the insensitivity of people who think they can trample on horrific episodes of history to make a silly point, or that the Holocaust and the request of one to respect those who have suffered in it has the same validity as holiday, family reunions and such. Think about it.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rich Lucibella:
Identification with our familial roots may be real important in areas such as religion, marriage, child rearing, death, morality, cooking and holidays. It has no place in rational political discussion, however.[/quote]

Oh, but it does. Rational discussion, whether it be political or otherwise, is founded upon knowledge of facts. And knowledge of facts is often founded on the passionate research for the truth spurred by one's sense of identification with a group, cause or common history.

To say that a Jewish person whose immediate family has seen death in the face during the nazi regime and has grown up hearing first-hand accounts of the atrocities perpetrated on loved ones, should not speak passionately about the subject is absurd.

It is absurd because:

1) He sees the atrocity as such not only in the name of "cosmic justice" but also in a very personal light;

2) He probably knows a lot more than you or I about the subject (including the actual sufference, having probably seen it in family members whom he has known and loved)and is therefore entitled to a higher soap-box than you or I.



[This message has been edited by 416Rigby (edited June 06, 2000).]
 
I am astounded by those who criticize Oleg. Those were human beings being destroyed by an all-powerful state, supported by ninnies such as the equivalents of the MMMs. Remember all those good downwind Germans that "didn't know" about the camps?

My grandparents were good Germans too, not Jewish, gypsy, homosexual, etc. If I can believe my dad, gramps was a jaeger on the Kaiser's estate. Monarchists to the core. From what we understand, they ended up on a one-way train trip to Birkenau because of their political beliefs.

Back in the 60s I had a printshop in Asbury Park, N.J. That community had a large Jewish community. I lived in an apartment run by two German ladies, both with numbers on their forearms. The only time they said anything was when I foolishly commented that "the Jews should have shot the SOBs".
One lady stared/glared at me and said, "Young man, they wouldn't let us own guns." My education began then.

George Hill hit the nail on the head. It needs to be repeated again and again: The "Truth can hurt.
The Truth is a painful teacher.
That poster while not PC or Popular is Truth in a very pure and unfiltered form.
The poster hurts because its true."

In other words, "Reality Checks hurt".


------------------
The New World Order has a Third Reich odor.

[This message has been edited by Oatka (edited June 06, 2000).]
 
I don't know that I can add anything that hasn't been said more eloquently already. Regardless of our sex, age, religion, nationality or race, the poster in question hurts us all.

It hurts us each emotionally, when we try to empathize with the women in the pictures.
It hurts us each mentally, when we try to grasp the unthinkable horror being done to humans, by humans. (How could they?)
It hurts us as Americans by dividing us against each other. We should all be vigilant to be sure that this never happens again, anywhere.
It hurts us as defenders of Liberty and Freedom because, though it is pure and unfiltered truth, it alienates those who would join us; and galvanizes those who oppose us.
It hurts us as defenders of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms for the same reasons that we use to discredit the antis: emotionally appealing, shocking, pictures and statistics.

It is a slice of truth that these women in the poster were put in this place by an immoral government who banned guns for all but the "elite," but that isn’t the whole truth.
It is a slice of truth that the women of the million mom march want our country to take a step toward banning guns, but that isn’t the whole truth.

The whole truth can only be found through the process of open-minded learning. Study the facts and decide for yourself. This poster serves as a terrible eye-opener. Let us not close them again just because it is the easy thing to do.

Remember. Reflect. Learn. Decide. Act.
 
I do not know if the poster is right or wrong. I question anything so horrible being used to further a personal goal the same way I admonish klinton and Schumer for taking advantage of the death of Kayla and the OKC bombing to further their own personal political agenda. I do know that I wished I had this poster with me when marching by the Million Mean Mommies in D.C. a few weeks ago when two of them on the sidewalk were calling me a Nazi.
 
There is something that makes absoloutely no sense in all this. How is this a 'reality check'? How do millions of mothers and children and husbands shipped off to a death camp and treated like animals compare to the state of affairs in the USA? I am the first one to say that one of the reasons the Jews could not defend themselves is the fact that the nazi authorities took any weapon away from them. I am the first one to stand up when I feel that my rights are being violated, be it by a person, a group, or a public authority.
But I am also the very first one to say that it is ludicrous and immoral to take a picture like that, which has ramifications much deeper than most people would ever understand, unless you lived in Warsaw in 1935, and link it to an event like the MMM, which has no social, political or human ramifications or tints of any kind, if not that of mothers with a free sunday and the latent need to relive Woodstock.
There are ways to make a point. And then there are inopportune ways. This, I feel, is one of those.
I could walk up to one of the mothers in the march and spit in their face, and call them names. But THAT would be inopportune. There are other ways to make a point, to get a thought across.
I believe it is rational thinking. I believe that the Holocaust is - in a way - sacred ground for tens of millions of families around the world.
Let's not trash this sacred ground with the incoherent shrills of Rosie O'Donnell.

[This message has been edited by italiano (edited June 07, 2000).]
 
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