Great Fun while open carrying

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Acting suspicious by conducting his bank business and moving on to shopping with his wife in a Fred Meyer store? How is that suspicious?
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Because a tax payer called in and made a complaint, reporting an armed man in a bank acting strangely and asking the Police to investigate it, which they did, which included the disposition "No Crime Committed".

To those who distrust or outright dislike the Police there is nothing they do that will ever meet with their approval. They complain when the Cops do something, and then at other times complain that "they're lazy no good donut eaters" who don't do a thing. Truly dammed all the way around no matter what.

TBO
 
The questioning was unnecessary, (especially after I stated it was quite legal for me to be shopping with my wife legally open carrying my handgun). I see no conditions present in this situation, nor did he claim to have any when approaching or during the entire time he harassed me, that reasonable suspicion or probable cause of any crime was at play.
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It's not really up to you to determine if questioning was necessary or not. That is up to the officer to decide. Nor does he have to inform you of any suspicion he may have when simply asking you a question.

When someone from the bank called 911, they obviously did so because they (reasonable or not) felt intimidated or were in fear. If you intended to do so (which you did not), this would have been a violation of WA law. (see below) THAT is reasonable suspicion! Therefore, the officer was well within his legal capacities to verify that you did or did not intend to intimidate or harm others. One of the ways he will decide this is by your attitude and actions.

Now, if you truly feel the officer "harrassed you" and violated your rights, hire an attorney and file a civil suit. However I doubt that you will because I think you know that it would never make it past summary judgement.

RCW 9.41.270
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm -- Unlawful carrying or handling -- Penalty -- Exceptions.

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.
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With all due respect, you should take a lesson from your wife and remain calm and polite if a similar situation happens again. To continue feeling agreaved will just cause you to become more contentious if it happens again and one of these times, a cop may feel that you did violate RCW 9.41.270. You will then be the "test" case you mentioned. :(
 
I open carry quite a bit here in Nevada. Lately, my favorite carry piece is my Walther P22 (two-tone OD/Black). I get no flack from anyone. I go to the bank, grocery store, Wal-Mart to buy ammo, A&W - anywhere. No problems so far.

One time about 10 years ago, I was riding my Harley and packing my 6" Python in a shoulder rig. It was summer, so that big wheel-gun stood out like a cockroach on a wedding cake. At a stoplight at a fairly busy intersection, a cop going the other direction pulled a U-turn right over the median and got behind me with lights a-flashin. He pulled me over and immediately called for backup. Three others showed up out of nowhere and surrounded me while still sitting on the bike. The primary officer took the revolver out of my holster and unloaded it and proceeded to call it in. I might add that all the officers involved were very polite and never got edgy or intimidated. After Primary Cop found out that I was legal and so was the gun, he loaded it, wiped off his fingerprints and placed it back into my shoulder rig. I never touched the gun the whole time. He then told me that there should be more people like me carrying becuase wherever I go, bad guys will think twice about doing anything stupid as long as they see someone packing.

I love this state!
 
Theophorus
It amazes me how willing some who have the right to open carry retreat in fear of exercising that right because the possibility of harrassment exists. It is this attitude I believe that has fueled the anti-gun movement in this country, and made us easy targets for unconstitutional treatment by governing authorities whether by legislation or actual physical intimidation and harrassment. If you can legally open carry, then it is your duty to do so on occassion. Use it or lose it!
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I was going to stay out of the rest of this thread because of the negative vibe I was getting from most of the other posters and Fishorman, but like bad food the night before, it just keeps coming back.

Theophorus, first of all, welcome to the forums. Secondly, you are under the assumption that the WA laws state clearly we have the right (excluding the purity of the Constitution) of open carry. No one on this forum has been able to make a convincing argument that the law clearly allows for this type of carry. If I knew that this right existed for sure, I would be out there with a sidearm is plain sight each and every day. I am not against open carry.

The only way to change any of this is to start an initiative and get the RCW to clearly state what is allowed or not. I will sign.

Theophorus, you do not put what state you are from. Do you open carry. What does the law read in your state? How does the law read in any state that allows open carry. I'll bet it is not as ambigious as the WA law.

Telling someone in the Seattle area that they should open carry so as not lose that right and that because they don't, they are contributers to the anti-gun movement and should not retreat in fear of exercising that right because the possibility of harrassment, is the same as telling that to some one that lives in downtown N.Y. or L.A. If you have not lived here, then don't assume. Seattle and its suburbia are very, very liberal.

Dave_S, lives where it is legal and still gets stopped, though it only cost a little of his time. Everyone around there have the correct attitude because it is common and legal.

This horse has been beaten badly enough that it is unrecognizable.
 
No one on this forum has been able to make a convincing argument that the law clearly allows for this type of carry. If I knew that this right existed for sure, I would be out there with a sidearm is plain sight each and every day. I am not against open carry.

NineX19 - the law functions in such a way that whatever is not prohibited is permitted. The law doesn't have to "allow for" something, it simply needs to not prohibit it for it to be legal.

What is prohibited in Washington State, under RCW 9.41.050 (1)(a) is the concealed carry of a firearm, as follows:

Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.
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RCW 9.41.050(2) prohibits carrying of a loaded firearm in a vehicle, also.

Article I, Section 24 of the state constitution reads "The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired ..." - that strikes me as pretty clear and unambigous.
 
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Well, the fact remains: no one in this state has ever been charged with the crime of open carrying.

One guy with an AK-47 in Seattle made a stand and he got ruled against on the grounds of warranting alarm in others. So now, everyone lives in fear. The more they live in fear the more fear lives.

Let's say Washington state passes the law that says open carrying is legal, (backwards thinking for a free society, but let's just play the game).

Do you think for a second that they won't still be able to go after the person that, "manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."??? Of course they will. If you uncover your handgun at the wrong moment you will get charged now and you would then as well.

So, not only do they have us in fear now, they would still have everyone in fear even after they declared open carrying legal. (Once again backwards thinking).

So, the less open carry gets done the greater the chance of scaring the sheeple. The greater the chance of being charged under RCW 9.41.270.

I have talked about this often with members of the older generation. Most of them still realize that guns in citizen's hands are not the problem. Some have already given up on a corrupt system and are operating outside the laws in order to have the right to self-defense. But, I have not given up, (entirely). I operate inside the system. It may be corrupt, but it will only be changed by those operating inside of it.

We are currently having an entire generation of children being taught all guns are bad. Do you think there will be a better chance to open carry sometime in the future? ...with this kind of up coming generation??? It's only getting worse.

When did anything worthwhile get accomplished without risk?

As for the harrasment, I am going to my police station tomorrow and the courthouse to file a complaint. I will also be doing a FOIA request for documentation. It would be easier to just step outside the law or bend my principles and conform to it.

http://fishorman.blogspot.com/
 
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you have to rememeber that WA State has gotten very good at writing firearms laws that are vague and ambiguious. I have a letter from the head of the Dept of Licencing that says the FBI is not a competent athority to run a background check. it will be (or may already be) both legal and illegal for me to carry or even be in possession of a firearm in Washington state. or it may be legal for me to CCW but at the same time be illegal for me to be in possesion of a firearm. no one can tell me.

and rememeber, in Seattle you can't CCW any weapon over 6 feet.

as for open carry, can I disarm any police officer I see since I think he MAY have a booze or drug problem or be a bent cop (yes, they do exist)?? if I get pulled over can I demand that person disarm since I am not sure he is a real cop? if I call the local PD and say I saw a Sherrif's Deputy with a gun doing coke off the hood of his car will he be treated the same way I would be treated if someone called in and said they saw me doing that?

I don't think so.
 
Do you load and unload your gun every time you get in and out of your car? I doubt it. If you DO load and unload your gun every single time you get in and out of your car instead of just getting a CCW permit, you're just plain weird. If you DON'T load and unload your gun every time you get in and out of your car, you're in violation of the law. After getting the EMERGENCY LINE (911) call about a man with a gun, the officers at LEAST had the reasonable suspicion that you were in violation of this law: (But I'm sure you walk everywhere that you want to carry your gun, you never drive, right?)

(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the
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Also, I think it's well within the bounds of reasonable suspicion to detain you based on this:
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.
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The clerk called the police emergency line, not the general information line. I'm quite sure the dispatcher didn't go over all the BS about "I just wanted to know what the law was" when they gave the run out. More likely it was "Man with a gun at the bank". You're lucky it was the clerk and the police who spotted you with the gun instead of the hold-up man.
 
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Do you load and unload your gun every time you get in and out of your car? I doubt it
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Actually, yes I do.
If you DO load and unload your gun every single time you get in and out of your car instead of just getting a CCW permit, you're just plain weird.
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Open carrying is wierd to most folks too. But, it's all the law allows me to do. I guess, reasonable suspicion would then require police to follow me around the store until finished shopping, then follow me out to my car to insure that I unload my gun before entering. Heck, why they are there, why not check for insurance, driving status, and tread on my tires. This type of police action was already tried... in Nazi Germany.
(But I'm sure you walk everywhere that you want to carry your gun, you never drive, right?)
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I was on this day. But when I'm driving I operate inside the laws as well. If you allow the government to investigate ANYONE long enough, they WILL find a crime.
Also, I think it's well within the bounds of reasonable suspicion to detain you based on this:(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.
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Where in this law does it call for detainment or investigation. Neither an ID check or questioning is called for in this law. IT SAYS: "in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place." Everything was visible to make an arrest on those grounds from the moment he approached me.

As for more on reasonable suspicion: Police actually were informed of two other legal business transactions BEFORE they approached me. That would give reasonable suspicion that I would be doing another LEGAL business transactions. Do you feel government needs more power to rule over the citizens? Where is it getting us? No one takes responsiblity for their own lives and safety as it is, (well, not very many atleast).

As I said, the manner in which I carry is determined by the law RCW 9.41.050. Would you rather me bow to a corrupt system, (paying the government for a unalienable right)? I would rather be called the criminal.

Some thought our founding fathers were acting "plain wierd" too. In order to do what they did, they were also forced to operate outside of a corrupt government.
 
I would've found the police's actions acceptable had they not gone to various people at the store and the bank to try and have permission to have Fishorman removed from the premises.

Yes, they investigated. Fine. But they seemed to have gone beyond what their jobs required of them after that point. Even if Fishorman had behaved rudely that doesn't justify the officers' actions. It may not have been the wisest thing to do, but I didn't realize it was against the law to be rude.

It amazes me that anyone can try to make excuses for what happened. Fishorman could have been the biggest jerk in the world and the steps the police had taken beyond speaking to him are still inexcusable. I know police officers are human just like the rest of us and will respond to rudeness in the same manner. However, since they are public servants they do have to hold themselves to a higher standard of conduct whether they like it or not.

I think it's possible that the outcome may have been different based on Fishorman's initial response to the first officer, but it seemed pretty apparent that no crime was committed. I'm not going to make excuses for how Fishorman handled the situation. In my mind it's irrelavent. They responded to Fishorman's apparently bad attitude with their own bad attitude. I may understand it, but I won't accept it from someone who has been entrusted with the authority to affect someone else's life.

I'm not sure what irks me more, the polices' actions or the excuses I hear about why they did what they did.
 
I would've found the police's actions acceptable had they not gone to various people at the store and the bank to try and have permission to have Fishorman removed from the premises.
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You're only getting one side of the story. Personally, I don't believe that he loads and unloads every time he gets in and out of the car.
 
I did that when carrying openly upon first moving to New Hampshire, prior to obtaining my CCW. What's so outlandish about it? You just carry in Condition 2 and drop the mag when you get in the car.
 
I did that when carrying openly upon first moving to New Hampshire, prior to obtaining my CCW. What's so outlandish about it? You just carry in Condition 2 and drop the mag when you get in the car.
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I don't believe this gentleman has any plans to get a CCW permit when he believes it's his "right" to carry openly. And walking around with an auto with no round in the chamber is dumb. Especially if you beleive, as many do on these forums, that the proper thing to do when someone has the drop on you is to go for your gun, because you can act faster than they can react and shoot you.
 
What do his plans to get a CCW have to do with your suggestion that he probably breaks the law by carrying loaded in his car?
 
"I did that when carrying openly upon first moving to New Hampshire, prior to obtaining my CCW."

Because I inferred that you were doing it temporarily until you were able to comply with the CCW law so that you could carry a handgun concealed and defensively. I'm inferring that Fishorman carries merely to assert his rights. And if so, I'm always suspect of someone who carries a gun merely because they can.
 
First of all, yes--it's your right to carry in the open.

That being said, why do it? Yes, I said why?

Carrying a gun brings all kinds of responsibility along with it that the CCW person can deal with on a much more relaxed basis.

First of all, it is only a matter of time before you have a disagreement with someone. Everyone has disagreements with others--even if it is just a short conversation, done under civil conditions.

If you, during the course of your conversation, let your hand drift back toward your pistol, then in this State, you have a charge of Intimidation with a Weapon (RCW 9.41.270). You see, it's not what YOU believe as a carrier of a firearm, it's what a "reasonable person" would believe. And, if the person you're talking to says that they felt threatened by your actions, instant gross misdemeanor.

And, yes, the State law does address the open carry of firearms:

"Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area..." -
RCW 9.41.060
Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.

Your carry of a loaded firearm in your vehicle is also specifically addressed:

" (2) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (a) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (b) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (c) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle." - RCW 9.41.050, Carrying firearms.

Note well that the conditions for carrying a loaded pistol within a vehicle state that you must have the pistol on your person, AND have a valid CCW.

It's the law, friend. And, trust me--if you do decide to carry openly, AND you choose to enter businesses and banks with this firearm displayed openly, you WILL be contacted by law enforcement. And, if you are in my jurisdiction, (which includes rural areas), and I see a holstered firearm, I have no intention of getting into a quick draw contest with someone I do not know.

You WILL be contacted by me, and I WILL have my sidearm drawn. Before I contact you, I will get backup when I can, and you WILL be covered by a long gun until I take possession of your handgun--at least temporarily--and find out what you're doing.

If you are a decent sort of guy, fine. You get your pistol back, with the ammunition handed to you separately, and will be instructed to not load it in my presence. If you are near your car, I will have you lock it in your trunk until I leave.

If you decide to start telling me about your rights, and give me ANY grief, fine. I acknowledge the Constitutional right to keep and bear arms.

I also acknowledge my personal right to go home safely that night.

You WILL be placed at gunpoint, and proned out. We'll take if from there.

I noted in one of your posts that an officer handed your gun back to you--loaded. That officer would get some time on the street, if it were up to me. What he did violated every rule of officer safety we are ever taught.

Sure, you might be a good guy. Heck, you more than likely ARE a good guy, one that bears arms responsibly, and one I would not mind having for back up. But you have to understand that the law is the law--and until there is some case law (stare decesis), or the law is changed either by the Court or the people, the law will be enforced.

In short, carrying a firearm openly like you did in my jurisdiction will get you a criminal cite. Might even get you arrested--period. You can straighten it out with the judge.

Finally, do you have any training in firearms retention? What do you do if someone decides to TAKE your gun from you? Do you have the skills and practice to keep them from doing so?

In an armed robbery, guess who's going to be the bullet magnet? Yep--you are. You will be assassinated the second a determined criminal sees your firearm in the open. CCW exists for a reason. Why advertise?

Well, I've put on the Nomex. Flame away.

Respectfully,

Powderman
aka, Your friendly neighborhood Tribal cop.
 
Would you care to explain that?
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Sure. I know quite a few people who carry concealed "just because they can". I really don't know any that carry openly. I have no problem with people carrying guns, but when someone insists on carrying openly just because there's no law that says they can't when they could easily get a permit to carry concealed, I start to infer that they're more concerned with forcing an opportunity to show off their knowledge of their rights than they are with responsible gun carry. Because as was posted by powderman, it is simply not responsible to carry in the open and then cop an attitude with a cop when you don't like the way he talks to you after getting a "man with a gun" run. I can't think of many other responsibilities that require such a degree of plain old common sense than carrying a pistol, and waltzing around with an open gun when people generally don't do that in your town when you could easily get a CCW permit does not demonstrate a great deal of common sense. I would not want to be in a situation where I was carrying concealed and a robbery went into motion knowing that there is another guy in the room who is armed, and whose judgement is suspect in my opinion. And if you carry openly with the mindset displayed in this thread, in my opinion, your judgement is highly questionable. Yes, you may very well have the right to carry openly, but I have the right to tell the stick-up man, "Look I don't want to die, so why don't you disarm that cowboy with the gun over there before the lead starts flying". Then when the open carrier guy tried to outdraw the guy who already has his gun pointed at him, I could shoot the bad guy in the back of the head.
 
FD, I didn't realize you were limiting your comment to someone who carries openly when he could carry concealed, just because he can.

FWIW, if he looks back at this situation 10 years from now, I suspect he will wonder why he had to put his family's finances at risk just to carry open vs. concealed. I personally can't see any advantages to open carry and a lot of disadvantages.
 
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