Great Fun while open carrying

[joab]

Voting is also a right, so should we not have to register? I've never once heard that arguement. In fact, most conservatives and libertarians I've talked too, think that voters registration should be made MORE stringent, not less.

How much does it cost to register to vote?
What class or training course do you have to take to be able to APPLY for the right to vote?
Can your right to vote be suspended for voting after a beer or two?
Can it be revoked if your wife ACCUSES you of domestic violence?
Can the state scrutinize how you vote or if you make others aware of your vote?
All voters registration does is prove you are who you say you are and live where you say you liuve, both extremely important aspects of the voting process.
All CCW does is attach a condition to a god given right.

Would I do what Fishorman has done? Probably no I would most likely wimp out and opt for security and comfort over true freedom and inconvience myself.

 

[tyme]

And imagine how fast state law would get changed if the law prevented everyone subject to a restraining order from voting. It wouldn't last a month. The fact that revocation of the RKBA is permitted without due process (both sides) shows just how marginalized the RKBA has become.

 

[KSFreeman]

Gee, I do that here and all I get is yawned at.

Good for you, sir. Maybe more will follow your example in standing up for their civil rights. No more back of the bus for us!

Welcome to TFL!

 

[P95Carry]

Welcome Jason .... glad to see someone join up with above average cojones!

PA is in same situation .. nothing says it AIN'T possible to open carry but ... as in so many places ..... it won't always avoid the panic buttons being hit by the paranoids when they see it. Local paper had something in it very recently re a guy carrying open and accused of something like ''intimidation'' .... it sure ain't easy these days excercizing rights but ... as so many say - if they are never used the sorta ''melt away''.

 

[Fishorman]

Well, I am not sure what happened last night/this morning, but I was unable to make it back into the forums for quite awhile. So, I was forced to only post over at my blog... I will now copy that post here. By the way, thanks for all the support/information. Specifically, those not really in favor of me open carrying. Like I said in my original post I still don't think keeping the "good" guns hidden is really helping the cause either. Many people have seen me with my handgun; cashiers, customers, and sadly police. Now, I for one am always very friendly, (well, not with the police so much), and the last thing they usually notice is the gun. I can't imagine that after walking away from those folks, they had a bad impression about guns, (or this gun nut). [The police are another matter. They know handguns are good and legal, but still they want the monoply on them. In that way they have choosen their side.]

Obviously, some of sheep have gotten a bad impression and 911 has been called. But, two 911 calls out of I'm guessing around 50 people seeing a handgun and thinking nothing of it. It still might not be enough to keep up with main stream media, but I am only one person.

Here's what I was thinking this morning:

RCW 9.41.270

Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm -- Unlawful carrying or handling -- Penalty -- Exceptions.

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

(2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.


I am just being informed of this 9.41.070, (of course, after the fact). I have already walked thru this town to the gun store to buy a clip and was approached by officer's in the gun store. The local prosecutor stopped by the store a few days later to find out what had happened and saw nothing wrong to issue a violation of law. Whether or not that is because he is gun friendly or because he couldn't see a way to apply 9.41.070, I am not sure.

That case is over with either way. The case now at hand is someone calling 911 because they got scared. The bank manager might have just wanted an officer there while he asked me not to return to the store open carrying, (but that's not what it felt like). Either way this is something the prosecutor might try turning into a 9.41.070 issue.

Having carried the gun across town, should mean something. Having gone to the bank before carrying, should mean something. (I am welcomed by the local Bi-Mart manager). Going to the bank to withdraw $400 should mean something. But, I have no way of controlling other's attitude about guns and their fear.

It seems the law is written for those actually doing some kind of action. Such as uncovering a concealed weapon, but it is written just vagually enough to piss me off.... ugh... anyway... I guess time will tell.

"in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."

That is what might try to get proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Manifests an intent to intimidate seems like a big stretch. "Warrants alarm" not sure what the heck that could mean... more later

Update: Ok, I have thought about it... read up on it and decided everyone is right. This law in effect makes this a very, very unfriendly state to open carry, if not outright illegal in most situations. But, this poorly written law is not going to be the reason I walk away from this issue. This law was not written with the intent of taking away the RIGHT to open carry. It will not be the reason I kiss the king's ars, pay more taxes, and submit to proving I am innocent before I can have a permit for the "right" to conceal carry...

I will continue to open carry. I have drawn a line in the sand. We have allowed ignorance of the sheep, because we haven't taken a stand, when we could have... I was one of the sheep then, so maybe, it's too late for me... I risk being the unarmed civilian, or the armed criminal for the rest of my life. Big deal! Laws have surrounded us making us all criminals... Keep tiptoeing if you like, but, that is not the respect that the law abiding gun carrying civilian deserves.​

 

[Cactus]

How much does it cost to register to vote?

It costs time to go to the appropriate office to register. Time is money! And unlike a CCW in WA, I have to re-register every time I move.

What class or training course do you have to take to be able to APPLY for the right to vote?

In WA you do not have to take ANY classes OR training courses to obtain a CCW.

Can your right to vote be suspended for voting after a beer or two?

Nope. And neither can your CCW in WA State!

Can it be revoked if your wife ACCUSES you of domestic violence?

No. But it can be revoked if I attempt to vote twice in the same election. In WA, I can carry two guns at a time and it's no ones business but mine!

Can the state scrutinize how you vote or if you make others aware of your vote?

Nope. Nor does WA scrutinize how I carry or tell others that I do!

All voters registration does is prove you are who you say you are and live where you say you liuve, both extremely important aspects of the voting process.

Voters registration is supposed (unfortunately it falls short) to ensure that you are a legal resident and not forbidden to vote.

That is exactly what a CCW does in WA. It just ensures that you are not legally forbidden from carrying a weapon. Most people consider that important as well!

Both Fishorman and I live in WA State, and that is the law I'm addressing. I can't speak for the laws in other states such as yours. If your state falls short of what you would like to see, change the law.

 

[Fishorman]

Come now???

That is exactly what a CCW does in WA. It just ensures that you are not legally forbidden from carrying a weapon.

What law ensures the criminal isn't carrying a weapon concealed? Law does not effect a criminal, it effects the law abiding.

Do you think with this law we can get them before they do the crime? Or is it so we can just tack something else on to the life-sentence they should already be getting?

And why the hell doesn't a convicted felon still have the "right" to self-defense? Guess what, he still does. Go find one and ask how many times he has carried illegally... with generally no fear of getting caught. But, if we only pass one more law that says cops can stop us without reason, then that will make sure the criminal doesn't carry. Where does it end? How many rights are you going to give away to only the criminals?

You are putting way to much of your life in the hands of those that take no responsible for your life.

 

[El Rojo]

Fishorman, I like your style. If you are seen walking about in public with a handgun and the cops show up, you remain calm, and then they release you with your gun still on your side, I don't see how that can be construed as negative for the 2nd Amendment. If you have the time and the patience, I applaud your efforts. The one suggestion I would have would be to make sure that whoever called you in at the bank understood what happened. I would try and make sure that they understand you were breaking no laws and that they have nothing to fear from a person who openly carries into the bank.

I won't be boycotting WAMU over this as they have never said a word when I carry into the bank down here in the PRK. Then again I have a CCW permit so what they don't know won't hurt them. Plus, you can only change banks so many times.

 

[Cactus]

What law ensures the criminal isn't carrying a weapon concealed? Law does not effect a criminal, it effects the law abiding.

That's like saying laws against theft don't effect the criminal because they're going to steal anyway. By the same measure, what law ensures that the criminal isn't openly carrying illegally?

Sorry, but WA law says that if you are carrying without a license, you are in effect a criminal and will face the consequences if caught. If people don't like the law for whatever reason, they can do as you have and legally carry openly or attempt to change it.

Do you think with this law we can get them before they do the crime?

I would hazard to guess that hundreds of felons have been prevented from commiting a crime in WA because they have been pulled over for a routine traffic stop and a concealed gun was found.

And why the hell doesn't a convicted felon still have the "right" to self-defense? Guess what, he still does.

Just as the people of WA and other states have decided that bans on libel and inciting violence are reasonable restrictions on free speach, they have concluded that preventing felons from posessing firearms is also reasonable. Restrictions deemed reasonable have been placed on our rights since the Bill of Rights was first adopted. If you feel this restriction is unreasonable, then you have the right to try and change it!

You are putting way to much of your life in the hands of those that take no responsible for your life.

You are presuming way too much about what I do or don't do from a few words on a gun forum.

 

[Fishorman]

Cactus. Didn't mean to presume.

As you can tell I am totally against the law that tells me I can't simple put the shirt over my gun and walk outside. Any infringement on that ability is just that, an infringement. Which means if this state still recognizes our rights to self-defense, then it is going to have to recognize my right to open carry, because they have already infringed on my right to conceal carry. For the time being I have chosen the best method, that does it's darnest to remain legal. It will either force the state to recognize my right of self-defense through open carry, or it will cause them to outright ban open carry.

Until they have the balls to bring that issue, open carry, to a straight up and down vote. I will still consider the only recognized right of self-defense as open carrying.


NINEX19 you said this earlier:

If it is acceptable where you are at, great; go for it. Get other locals there to do it consistantly and it will become the norm.

I saw the local gun store owner open carrying just last week, (I believe he was the owner). He was standing just outside his door, smoking a cigarette with a gun on his hip. Somehow, I think that is about as far as he pushes it. When I walked by him open carrying he gave me a dirty look. Maybe, Ellensburg is already too far gone, when I can't even get support from the supposedly gun-friendly crowd.

 

[Fishorman]

There are many exceptions for legally conceal carrying without a permit, 9.41.060, section 8.

Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participation in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;

I certainly don't consider these exceptions my right, but I use them often to do may best to remain legal. Lots of gray areas this law creates too. It's just freaking sad that a man trying to do his duty to God, family and Country has to keep looking over his shoulder.

 

[Cactus]

As you can tell I am totally against the law that tells me I can't simple put the shirt over my gun and walk outside.

I kinda' suspected you might be. Even though you hide your feelings well.

Any infringement on that ability is just that, an infringement.

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

Which means if this state still recognizes our rights to self-defense, then it is going to have to recognize my right to open carry,...

Apparently the state does recognize it. I applaud your doing so, I have never had an objection to open carry. I also agree with others who feel that if average poeple would see their neighbors carrying, their attitudes regarding guns may change for the better.

It will either force the state to recognize my right of self-defense through open carry, or it will cause them to outright ban open carry.

If you feel so strongly about no CCW for concealed carry, remember that WA has the power of citizen initiative. You could always start one to make this state like Alaska and New Hampshire. You get one started and I will be happy to sign it!

 

[deanf]

They knew they had nothing on me, but tried to back me into a lie. Asking for a Concealed Weapon permit? I told him I didn't need one for what I was doing. But he asked me again. (Key to that little misdemeanors is if you have a CCW permit and don't tell a cop when he asks for it, then you are breaking a law). I do not have one, so he couldn't get me on that little technicality. (But, he tried). Also, tried to get me on the whole address change crap. "Is this your current address?" Bite me, yes it is.

Just a point of order: failing to produce your CPL when asked is not a misdemeanor. It's only a Class 1 Civil Infraction. A $250 ticket.

Added on edit: And it's not an infraction at all if you're not carrying concealed. This from Joe Waldron over at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wa-ccw/

See RCW 9.41.050.

 

[Fishorman]

anything in a pinch

Just goes to prove that anything will do when they can't come up with a pinch...

 

[Fishorman]

I have been updating my little blog some on this topic here: www.fishorman.blogspot.com

The Ellensburg Washington Mutual Bank manager that has me banned from open carrying is here: (509) 933-7333. The corporate office doesn't ban open carry but leaves it up to branch managers. They have a good online message center here: http://www.wamu.com/home.htm You need to click on Customer Service, select your state and then click Contact us. They got back to me the first time within 4 hours. The last message I sent to them was this:

Well, it appears that the Ellensburg branch manager
was misinformed about your company policy on this
issue and asked that I not carry openly in his branch,
(saying he felt that was what company policy was). I
have already closed my account and when my wife gets
back from her trip to New Orleans she will be closing
her account as well, (unless he is has a change in
attitude). Best Regards, Jason Hartney

The Fred Meyer really deserves congratuations on acknowledging customers who open carry: (509) 962-0500 online comments here http://www.fredmeyer.com/customercomments.htm The message I left for them was this:

Just wanted to give a big thank you to the local Ellensburg Branch Fred Meyers. I was shopping with my wife in the cosmetics section when approached by police officers for legally open carrying my handgun. They started to harass me for open carrying and asked some Fred Meyers managers to remove me. That is the way the law works, when someone is doing something legal, the business must be the ones to tell me to leave. I don't have the right to conceal my handgun, so I open carry for the self-defense of my wife and myself and possible anyone else who would have the need. (Hopefully, that will never happen). Anyways, I would like to thank the managers personally because they declined the police officers' request to have me removed. I plan on shopping much more often at this Fred Meyer, (not always open carrying mind you). I was withdrawing a large sum of money yesterday from the Washington Mutual located inside your store.

The mayor of Ellensburg, Stanley Bassett, is at (509) 962-7220
Mayor@ci.ellensburg.wa.us

The Police Chief, Bob Richey, is at (509) 962-7288
policedept@ci.ellensburg.wa.us

The City Attorney, Jim Pidduck, is at (509) 962-7259
cityattorney@ci.ellensburg.wa.us

Other local official city contacts are here: http://www.ci.ellensburg.wa.us/contact.cfm

The County Prosecutor is at (509) 962-7520

The local Ellensburg Daily Record newspaper is located here: http://www.kvnews.com/ They accept email letters to the editor here: letters@kvnews.com Which would be nice of someone because I might still be over my limit: letters@kvnews.com

 

[LAK]

Fishorman's problem is that he doesn't think it squares up that one should have to obtain permission, get photo'd and printed, and pay a tax to exercize a right - a codified right at that. I have the same problem. And he is right when he notes that the right should be used.

He is also correct in that our jurisprudence in the United States is one of prohibition.

The answer to the circus that occurred in Fred Meyers is of course for as many people as possible to exercize their right, which in this specific has not been infringed by Washington state law, and openly carry handguns where it is legal. At some point the antagonists will lose interest, as they perhaps are subjected to the courts themselves, and otherwise due to the sheer number of false reports.

But people subjected to such nonsense ought to seek legal redress be it civil or criminal charges. And kudos to the management of Fred Meyers. When I lived in Alaska Fred Meyers was my favorite place to shop. They even still sold handguns there in '97.

 

[jimpeel]

Fishorman

Welcome to the boards.

The statute you are likely to be taken before a judge is this:

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

The fact is that it will be some blissninnie who will be "alarmed for their safety" that will sic the cops on you.

At the time you go to court, when the judge raises his gavel to convene the court, dive under the table with great fanfare. When asked what you are doing, simply state in a loud quavering voice "I thought you were going to hit me with that hammer!" You may then choose to continue to complain and make a scene if you wish or you may not such as diving under the table, cowering, jumping uncontrollably, etc., every time he bangs the damned thing.

If a jury has been empaneled, they will get a good lesson on how anyone can make a big deal about someone bearing arms and how that "fear" can be taken to extremes. Then use the hammer incident in your defense.

 

[Fishorman]

The question was asked, "Why can't you do concealed carry?"

Quite frankly, I CAN. But, that would immediately make me the criminal.

As for getting the CPL:

The fact is that the concealed carry option has most certainly been impaired.

With that impaired, that leaves only one choice to meet the demands of Washington State law.

SECTION 24 RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS.
The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired,...

I am not seeking out to be a spectacle. I would have it that open carry was fine and dandy everyday I do it. If once, or twice every 10 times I open carry, I get stopped and harassed... that is something I am willing to put up with. Atleast, the other 8 times I was able to do my duty to God, family, and Country, without the hassel.

 

[Fred Hansen]

I open-carry in WA from time to time, but only in places where I can without much trouble - places like Randle, or Elbe, or even Ellensburg. I'm sure that you know that a person can't get away with it in the Seattle/Tacoma area.

If your "line in the sand" ever extends to the Seattle/Tacoma area, you should expect some jail time, and if you follow jimpeel's advice you can also expect a little time tacked on for contempt of court. OTOH, if you followed Jim's advice in eastern WA, the judge would probably laugh and say "You are right! Case dismissed!"

The problem with western WA is liberals. We have bazillions of them over here. You guys "back east" have practically none. Take a subjective law where all a blissninny has to say is "I was ascared and poopied my diaper", and add to it that our judges are elected by an overwhelming majority of liberal Democrats, and poof! Jail for you!

 

[Fishorman]

Just so folks know. This isn't the first time open carrying and hassled. I wrote this letter to the editor printed in Ellensburg Daily Record last month.

I walked to the gun store last week legally carrying my UNCONCEALED handgun. It was located in my cargo pants pocket, with handle sticking out, quite UNCONCEALED. I made sure to never touch my gun, just simple walked to the store with it in plain view. This is called open carrying and is entirely legal in Washington State.

Upon arriving in the gun store, I picked out a clip for my handgun and proceeded to look at other items. I was then approached by an Ellensburg police officer that had received a 911 call of someone with a gun. The officer saw how I was carrying the gun, yet asked to see my conceal carry permit. Having the gun in plain view, one was not necessary, which I informed him. He proceeded to take the gun from me, and asked for my ID. I complied, yet I told him I would rather not be harassed for legally open carrying. Another officer arrived; I got my ID back and my gun. I again said that I did not enjoy being harassed. The first officer told me that the second officer was his supervisor and they would not leave until he was finished lecturing me on the law. I declined, telling him I knew the law, (RCW 9.41.050), and was abiding by it. Feeling harassed with no other options available, I was forced to leave the store to avoid continued harassment.

If the officer reading this still feels like he needs to discuss the law with someone; please, find the person that dialed 911 and tell them 911 is for emergencies/life threatening situations. The simple viewing of a handgun is neither.


Jason Hartney
Ellensburg, WA

UPDATE: I no longer carry this way. I was young and immature then. I believed at the time that I had the right to do it, which I do. But, it does not set a good example to the sheep.

I did carry later that same day in the same manner. I walked 15 blocks to Bi-Mart, where the manager got on the phone to find out store policy and then informed me I was free to walk in his store carrying it openly. He even walked up to me while shopping and told me he was all for me carrying. But, those are the days of my youth